Kiai Carita
White Belt
I believe that Socrates was following more ancient knowledge. Hermes Trismagistus and the Emerald Tablet teach about the unseen world long before Socrates began to poison the youth of Athens.Jerry said:
Hormat,
Kiai Carita.
OP
OP
pekho
Guest
Kiai Carita-
Thank you for a post that displays a piece of what is clearly a broad knowledge of silat.
Quote-"Salam Perguruan, Pekho...I am an Indonesian and familiar with PGB, having spent time in both Bogor and Tugu since joining Bengkel Teater in 1983."
It is nice to hear from someone who knows my school from the old days. The "salam perguruan" is something I would say to my teachers rather than what I would expect addressed to me, though it is always nice to see respect in the martial world. As you have been training for 22 years and I have only been studying for 20 you are my elder
I was also impressed by your knowledge of Western esoterica, though as a fan of Socrates I would have to respectfully disagree with your apparent opinion of him. Nevertheless, this is not the place for that discussion.
I am not surprised to hear you say "magic' is a term brought to silat by outsiders. I also liked your comment that one can only teach what you know, and so I need to observe my own movements. I guess my difficulty is how to approach teaching what is difficult to see. If I teach throwing (ambilan) I can say "move your energy until the other person is hanging then sweep!” If the science (ilmu) is correct the person falls, if not, they don't. But how do I teach things that are not so obvious? A person's movement either has the spirit of a crane or it does not. There is no movement I can show that is the spirit. When I try and talk about it I sound too mystical. I have seen my teacher just give someone the spirit of a movement. I can see it in him and then I can see it in the student, but I cannot explain it, and I have a hard time giving my students the spirit of a movement in the same way. I know that it is a matter of doing the movements, for both myself and my students, but I am looking for approaches that make it easier. It seems like many people in Indonesia are more open to things like accepting the spirit of a movement than most people are in the US. My teacher has acted like a bridge between the two cultures. He has learned how to talk about things like angles and center of balance, which were never part of his teaching. He just did the movement. By translating his understanding into Western scientific terms, he has made it easy for me to show my students the technical aspects of the movements. However, more and more, I feel this is not enough. I am trying to also build a bridge so that my students can progress to a higher level. The problem is that much of this is outside what can be talked about. I have asked my teacher about this, but I think it is embarrassing for him to talk about spiritual things while thinking like a Westerner. It is too easy for him to end up sounding like some new age crystal worshiper or Yoda.
Anyway, if you have any suggestions about how to approach this subject, with either my teacher or my students, I would appreciate it.
Tarima kasih,
Josh
Thank you for a post that displays a piece of what is clearly a broad knowledge of silat.
Quote-"Salam Perguruan, Pekho...I am an Indonesian and familiar with PGB, having spent time in both Bogor and Tugu since joining Bengkel Teater in 1983."
It is nice to hear from someone who knows my school from the old days. The "salam perguruan" is something I would say to my teachers rather than what I would expect addressed to me, though it is always nice to see respect in the martial world. As you have been training for 22 years and I have only been studying for 20 you are my elder
I was also impressed by your knowledge of Western esoterica, though as a fan of Socrates I would have to respectfully disagree with your apparent opinion of him. Nevertheless, this is not the place for that discussion. I am not surprised to hear you say "magic' is a term brought to silat by outsiders. I also liked your comment that one can only teach what you know, and so I need to observe my own movements. I guess my difficulty is how to approach teaching what is difficult to see. If I teach throwing (ambilan) I can say "move your energy until the other person is hanging then sweep!” If the science (ilmu) is correct the person falls, if not, they don't. But how do I teach things that are not so obvious? A person's movement either has the spirit of a crane or it does not. There is no movement I can show that is the spirit. When I try and talk about it I sound too mystical. I have seen my teacher just give someone the spirit of a movement. I can see it in him and then I can see it in the student, but I cannot explain it, and I have a hard time giving my students the spirit of a movement in the same way. I know that it is a matter of doing the movements, for both myself and my students, but I am looking for approaches that make it easier. It seems like many people in Indonesia are more open to things like accepting the spirit of a movement than most people are in the US. My teacher has acted like a bridge between the two cultures. He has learned how to talk about things like angles and center of balance, which were never part of his teaching. He just did the movement. By translating his understanding into Western scientific terms, he has made it easy for me to show my students the technical aspects of the movements. However, more and more, I feel this is not enough. I am trying to also build a bridge so that my students can progress to a higher level. The problem is that much of this is outside what can be talked about. I have asked my teacher about this, but I think it is embarrassing for him to talk about spiritual things while thinking like a Westerner. It is too easy for him to end up sounding like some new age crystal worshiper or Yoda.
Anyway, if you have any suggestions about how to approach this subject, with either my teacher or my students, I would appreciate it.
Tarima kasih,
Josh
Kiai Carita
White Belt
Salam Perguruan, Josh...pekho said:
You probably know that members of Bengkel Teater Rendra have a unique relationship with PGB. We used to joke that we were the Beggar Clan of PGB, and as PGB has given so much to me while I have given nothing back I have deep respect for all real members of the school.
In my experience in theatre it is true that Westerners find it difficult to surrender to their 'under-current' and manifest the spirit of their part. Indonesians culturally trance easily and getting the 'spirit of the crane' requires this kind of trance. However my teacher always told me that the Spanish have the same knowledge in their art, and they call it El Duende.
To teach oneself to be able to fall into a 'pure trance', the kind that Walt Whitman is talking about when he says 'I sing a song of myself...' one must train one's sensitivity, one's energy, and one's flow. In Jawa, one traditional method is to meditate on the senses with eyes closed to train the senses, meditate on the puser (dan-tian in Chinese MA) for energy, and free movement for flow and for contacting one's 'inner-self'.
Some traditions keep the 'free flow' exercises for a dramatic night with a storm raging. The students are then told to travel somewhere quite far, often through scary areas, to make them tired and aware while forgetting their pretensions. When they gather in a secluded place the teacher will teach the 'free flow', often talked about as 'opening' the student's 'batin'. Once a student experiences this there should be no problem in manifesting the spirit of a crane in crane movements, a tiger in macan movements and so on.
Rationalizing and explaining things in a Western 'academic' way only serves to satisfy the 'academic desire' and will not make anyone better at silat, which requires more doing and feeling rather than analysing or describing. All PGB trainers I studied under always said 'don't ask to much, just do it!' before Nike began to use the phrase.
As for Socrates, he is also one of my Gurus. Like Yoda, all he says is true silat.
Hormat...
Kiai Carita.
Jagermeister
Blue Belt
I'm not trying to start a fight, but I would like to add my 2 cents.
There is no such thing as magic. No one can magically make a knife appear. And if you spend your time trying to do it, that's fine, if you enjoy it. But don't expect to see the knife appear.
Just imagine - if anyone could make anything magically appear, think of the applications and how this would substantially change the world as we know it today. Why would anyone use this power to make a knife appear anyway? Food, fuel, vaccines, etc. could be produced at no cost. Sadly, this is not a possibility. And I think any discussion of it, beyond the scope of entertainment techniques, is silly.
No disrespect to anyone, just my 2 cents.
There is no such thing as magic. No one can magically make a knife appear. And if you spend your time trying to do it, that's fine, if you enjoy it. But don't expect to see the knife appear.
Just imagine - if anyone could make anything magically appear, think of the applications and how this would substantially change the world as we know it today. Why would anyone use this power to make a knife appear anyway? Food, fuel, vaccines, etc. could be produced at no cost. Sadly, this is not a possibility. And I think any discussion of it, beyond the scope of entertainment techniques, is silly.
No disrespect to anyone, just my 2 cents.
liuseongsystem
Yellow Belt
'Let me open up with my moving light wind chimes, and a straw. Here is my secret of my magic: AIR DISPLACEMENT, the science behind the '
lol, i was waiting for that.
i have been in a ma a long time and have never seen anything qualifying as 'magic' or 'dong jing' and so on.
parlor tricks....
the psychology and biomechanics creates what people sometimes mistake for 'magic' due to ease of appearance.
i was throwing a student onetime with an arm throw and a sparring partner of mine later commented the it look like i was using the 'force' to throw the guy, and he wasnt a kid either, being about 15 yrs older than me and a pretty street smart kind of guy. he wasnt stupid, but he didnt know what he was looking.
thanx.
lol, i was waiting for that.
i have been in a ma a long time and have never seen anything qualifying as 'magic' or 'dong jing' and so on.
parlor tricks....
the psychology and biomechanics creates what people sometimes mistake for 'magic' due to ease of appearance.
i was throwing a student onetime with an arm throw and a sparring partner of mine later commented the it look like i was using the 'force' to throw the guy, and he wasnt a kid either, being about 15 yrs older than me and a pretty street smart kind of guy. he wasnt stupid, but he didnt know what he was looking.
thanx.
