magic

[pekho]

This may seem a little odd, but I want to know how other styles approach the concept of magic in silat. I know this is a complicated topic. Believers may not want to talk about it because it is dangerous and secret, and non-believers wont want to talk about it because it is BS. However I think there is room for discussion. Magic in silat relates to such important concepts as "tanaga dalem" (roughly inner power), which is clearly important in Indonesian arts. What is magic? I am not sure. That is one thing we can discuss. To me it has to do with the essence and spirit of a movement. It also has to do with things like the ability to influence people. This is seen best when a pendakar tells you to do something that you know is impossible, and then you do it. If the teacher says with enough conviction that you can dive over a table, you can dive over a table, even if you knew this was impossible for you. It can't change what is really impossible, but it can change what you think is impossible.



So here are my questions:



How can one approach the concept of magic when teaching in America?



Is it still silat if there is no magic?



How do you think the ill-defined word "magic" relates to other esoteric ideas like "chi" and "essence"?



Magic in Indonesia often seems like a combination between real techniques and BS. Is it possible to separate the two, and if so how?



I am particularly interested in what people who are either living in, or are from Indonesia have to say on this topic.

Josh

 

[tshadowchaser]

no im not a student of silat so these are only my thoughts.



It seems like the term magic in today’s society is looked upon as something out of a stage illusionist show or something we thing of when Merlin is mentioned. A better term might be those you suggested or even "positive thinking".



I too would like to know what people of that region think of the idea of magic

 

[GuruJim1]

Magic is most Southeast Asian martial arts. Indonesians call it "illum", the Filipinos call "anting anting", and the Chinses call it "Chi". It's all the same thing, internal power. I have seen and done things with internal power that would appear to be magical. However, there is a real science to what I, or other has done. The only difference is that they understand how it works. I don't spread it around that I teach magic, but I do say I teach internal power sciences. Science is exactly that, a science. This is something to be understood, and studied. Americans are too quick to say something is impossible, when in fact it is very possible with the right understanding. Now, I'm not saying that I can pull a knife out of thin air, but I can use empty force to move light wind chimes, or straws hanging from a thread. But I have taught others to do the same thing. So as Americans we need to re-think what’s impossible, or possible.

If there is no magic in Silat is it still Silat? Yes of course it is. Silat can be internal, or external arts. Some don't go into all the magic B.S. Silat, and that’s fine. Some believe that the magic is real, and will practice and hope they can pull a knife out of thin air someday. To each their own.

 

[silat]

Josh,

I will try to answer your questions as I see it:


How can one approach the concept of magic when teaching in America?

By teaching it as a science and explaining the real versus the BS!


Is it still silat if there is no magic?

Yes, Silat can be Silat without the "Magic"!


How do you think the ill-defined word "magic" relates to other esoteric ideas like "chi" and "essence"?

To me Magic is not the same as chi. Magic tends to be things that are obsured like making a keris appear out of thin air, a shield that bullets won't penetrate and etc..

Chi is what can be done even if it defies your own logic & understanding like empty force, immovable body, Iron Palm, Poison Hand, Iron Body etc..


Magic in Indonesia often seems like a combination between real techniques and BS.

Yes it is possible to separate the two! Indonesia is a very superstitious place and as such that is integrated into Silat as well as other aspects of their life because they didn't have the science to understand how these things happened or explain them. We do so we can! (now there are some things that work or happen that science cannot explain)


Is it possible to separate the two, and if so how?

By teaching the science behind it and leaving out all the obsured claims!


Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[Jerry]

Now, I'm not saying that I can pull a knife out of thin air, but I can use empty force to move light wind chimes, or straws hanging from a thread. But I have taught others to do the same thing.

What happened when you took this up with Randi over the million dollars? Have you considered the money you could make on the talk-show circuit?

By teaching it as a science and explaining the real versus the BS!

I'm not convinced that this is possible... though I'd have to know more about what specific information you are interested in.

Science is interested in testable hypothesis, and the ability to repeat tests with consistant outcomes. While Jim's asserted ability to move light objects could concievebly be tested and repeated (requiring him as a test element), most of the claims associated with energetic work, magic, and prayer are not.

(now there are some things that work or happen that science cannot explain)

I must again disagree.. though there are "things" and processes for which a clear explanation has not been found (source and properties of dark-energy, for example).

By teaching the science behind it and leaving out all the obsured claims!

I would have to argue that such things were not "magic" to begin with... but again, the claim here is vague.

 

[GuruJim1]

While Jim's asserted ability to move light objects could concievebly be tested and repeated (requiring him as a test element)

I have been tested and put on the spot with this before. As for it being magic, no it’s not anyone that knows how to do it can move light objects. I have showed others, and they have done the straw hanging by a thread feat. As far as the Randy guy, not a bad idea. But until then I'll just be happy with amazing people with my,"Magic" LOL. I haven't been tested on it out of the blue in a while and would welcome it. But I still haven't been master the knife out of thin air thing. I grab the air, and all I grab is air, LOL. Well, you can win them all.

 

[Jerry]

If you do figure out the "knife from thin air" trick, let me know... I'd find that terribly useful myself... especially if they were "new" knives (save me a fortune)

 

[silat]

Jerry,

Quote:
By teaching it as a science and explaining the real versus the BS!

I'm not convinced that this is possible... though I'd have to know more about what specific information you are interested in.

Science is interested in testable hypothesis, and the ability to repeat tests with consistant outcomes. While Jim's asserted ability to move light objects could concievebly be tested and repeated (requiring him as a test element), most of the claims associated with energetic work, magic, and prayer are not.

It is possible depending on how far you want to go. Everyone always thinks science is perfect but in fact they make mistakes & wrongly hypothesize more than the superstitious do. What I am talking about when I say explaining the real is the facts that are tangible and can be performed like immovable body, Iron palm and etc. Not stuff that no one can do like making a keris appear out of thin air or stopping bullets.

Quote:
(now there are some things that work or happen that science cannot explain)

I must again disagree.. though there are "things" and processes for which a clear explanation has not been found (source and properties of dark-energy, for example).

Science can't prove a lot of things starting with the "Big Bang Theory" hence the THEORY part of the title. When science says something is theory all that means is that they don't really know and in their minds say it could of happened this way!


Science has done a lot of good for the Martial Arts starting with finding that electrical current exist in the body and runs through a series of pathways, which the Asians call "Chi Meridians" and knew about thousands of years ago. (go figure)


Science has done more in proving the wild claims of martial artist than they have of disproving them but the fact remains that there are way to many things that exist in the Universe that science cannot prove regardless of their conjecture in trying to do so.


Science is provine wrong everyday and ancient claims proving correct!

Quote:
By teaching the science behind it and leaving out all the obsured claims!

I would have to argue that such things were not "magic" to begin with... but again, the claim here is vague.

It doesn't say "magic" it says absurd claims! Let's say science could hypothesize about materializing a keris out of thin air, well if they could not do it then it would still be an absurd claim that people should leave alone and talk about the stuff that is not theory and can be performed.



Sincerly,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[Jerry]

It is possible depending on how far you want to go. Everyone always thinks science is perfect but in fact they make mistakes & wrongly hypothesize more than the superstitious do.

Ignoring the obvious "supersition isn't hypothesis", you seem to make a presuppositional error that what people (scientists included) do in terms of hypothesis is in some way a result or property of "science". Firther, you make a quantative claim that I find dubious and for which you have offered no support.

Finally, I don't see this claim tying into the topic at hand. You started by suggesting that magic be taught as a science, and then proceeded to assert science as highly erronious... you appear to be undermining what I understood to be your position.

What I am talking about when I say explaining the real is the facts that are tangible and can be performed like immovable body, Iron palm and etc. Not stuff that no one can do like making a keris appear out of thin air or stopping bullets.

Your example seems in direct opposition to your premise. Making a Kris appear out of thin air would be tangeable... "I'm harder to move", and "hitting hurts less" are extremely subjective... unless your immoveably body shows up on a scale.

Science can't prove a lot of things starting with the "Big Bang Theory" hence the THEORY part of the title. When science says something is theory all that means is that they don't really know and in their minds say it could of happened this way!

At the risk of digressing further from what is already off-topic, it's abundantly clear that you have no engineering or scientific background. This is an entierly erronious definition of the word "theory" from the standpoint of science. Something which is unproven is a hypothesis... a theorum is a hypothesis which has undergone peer review, has made predictions, has been tested, the predictions have proven true, and the experiment has been repeatable.

A theory is a collection of facts, laws, and theorums to offer a system of how something works. Bouancy is also a theory.

Science has done a lot of good for the Martial Arts starting with finding that electrical current exist in the body and runs through a series of pathways, which the Asians call "Chi Meridians" and knew about thousands of years ago. (go figure)

Like much of your post, this is rife with error, vagueness, and unsupported assertion.

The only electrical current I'm aware of is the one that connects nerve-cells together... these run though nerve conduits, not along meridians. I am unsure how much these overlap, though I know it's not complete. If you are referring to a different study of electrical impuleses, you will need to be more specific than "science found".

Science is provine wrong everyday and ancient claims proving correct!

Again you appear to be contradicting your own claim. You just got through telling me how "science" proved an ancient claim correct. Since you are using "science" as your basis for proof (it's proven because "science" says so), it's an oxymoron to talk about "science" being disproven.

It doesn't say "magic" it says absurd claims! Let's say science could hypothesize about materializing a keris out of thin air, well if they could not do it then it would still be an absurd claim that people should leave alone and talk about the stuff that is not theory and can be performed.

The topic of this discussion is magic in Silat. The word "Magic" occurs 6 times in your original post, three of them by you... I've pointed out the vagueness of the term, though you've done nothing to clarify what you ment when you were referring to it (unless you are calling iron body / immoveable body "magic").

You seem to be continuing something of an inconsistant rant about science; but since I cannot find a way that said rant ties into the topic at hand, I'll not inquire further about it. Sit back, take some time, figure out what your position and complaint is, and try to articulate it in a positive "what is going on" rather than a negative "what's wrong" manner... perhaps clarity will improve.

 

[pekho]

That was a well said, if maybe not so gentle reply to a post that is exemplary of much of the ignorance of science in the American public.

Please, let’s not talk about what "science" means in a martial art. That is a different discussion.



It is also generally a bad idea to figure out the "scientific" reason behind things like energy meridians. A discussion of "energy" flowing along meridians is in a different frame of reference from a discussion of "energy" as defined by Western physics. The two are not really comparable. When I talk about "energy" in a martial arts sense, I bring together both mental and physical aspects of the word. To talk about energy that way in the context of Western Science would be absurd.



I would be interested in how people view magic. Personally, I would categorize moving wind chimes with "chi" as typical magical "action at a distance". Action at a distance is not well accepted in recent centuries, but you never know.



Another form of magic that interests me more is the trance/self hypnosis aspect of essence within movements. Animal movements in particular seem designed to bring out instinctive characteristics that bypass our inhibitions. I have seen how by dropping inhibitions, movements become flowing and powerful. I once watched an Indonesian pendekar transfer "magical energy" into a relatively untrained student. In a semi/trance the student was able to move like a much more advanced practitioner. Our own self-analysis seems to make it difficult to move well. "Magic" in this sense seems to break this inhibition.

Josh

 

[Jerry]

In my experience, working with many different Indo and Indo-Chinese instructors and practitioners: energy (qi) and magic tend to be seen as seperate things. Some also differntiate "spirit work" and magic.

Some of the actions that I would thing fall into the category as you mean it (for example, no-contact effects on people) I've experimented with engough that, depsite a signifigant inherent skepticism I've come to accept. I'm not sure how much this helps your question on how I veiw it.

Perhaps the "how I view it" is better illustrated with my view on many of the claims I've not had established: "very skeptical". The trouble with the whole area of interest is that it is rife with charlitains. I'm doubious of a good deal of the claims, and downright disbelieving of others... though I've been proven wrong before

While I'm a fan of what you refer to here as "self hypnosis", though I see several different mechanisms at work, I've heard about but not observed the "transferring magical energy" act. I'm not entirely dismissive, having been on the giving and recieving end of energy work. I would enjoy the opportunity to observe and experience, if it exists, that level of transferrance.

 

[GuruJim1]

To the Broad,

Let me clear up what I call magic, and internal arts.

Internal Arts:

Internal Arts like: Iron Body, Tai Chi, and Chi Kung. Has been proven to have a good effect on your health. I have seen an article where a doctor did a blood draw from a person before, and after a Chi Kung Form. In the after subjects blood cells where more active and flowed better. Was this because of magic? NO, it was because of the exercise. This just proves any exercise is good exercise, the science behind the art. Tai Chi, and Chi Kung has been shown to lower stress levels, Magic??? No, anything to slow your thoughts and get your mind off your problems will do the same thing, the science behind it. Tai Chi people have for years claimed magical powers that come from CHI. Iron Body, and Iron Palm has Chi Kung in it, but it also has physical conditioning as well. Conditioning the mind with meditation, forms, and physical conditioning is powerful training to prepare you for battle, so you don't freeze up when your life is on the line. The Chinese believe that the chi point is 2-3 inches below the navel, but the Indonesians believe it is at the heart (Refer to Don Draggers books). This is what I mean to teach the science behind the magic.



Magic:



Let me open up with my moving light wind chimes, and a straw. Here is my secret of my magic: AIR DISPLACEMENT, the science behind the magic. I'm a police officer, and a police instructor. I teach at the local academy, and at departments for officers 40 hours of training a year. I have proven that I can pull a knife from thin air. First let me say this, I have been doing magic (Like David Copperfield) for years. I have been at much convention for magician. I know where to look and when. Because I know how hide, and hold a knife at the correct distance so you can't see the knife. At one training event for the beanbag shotgun I was teaching with 2 other instructors. We had simunitions (Plastic rounds with colored soap shot from a modified firearm); in the scenarios I was to have a knife. I was able to hide the knife, and camouflage my movements so well that the knife appeared to come from thin air. A lot of the officers asked me how I was able to get a knife. I replied; I know the darkest magic out of the juggles of Indonesia. Some officer said BS, and some actually had their doubts that I might know magic. Again the science behind the magic.



There is a science behind everything we do, breathing, walking, and love (still unexplained by science). I have seen things in my life that I can't explain, but was as real as my computer (which would be thought as magical in the 19th century). Does this mean that magic is real or BS, well that’s up to you. I believe in magic, and miracles just because it fun to believe in something that you can't explain.

 

[silat]

Jerry,

I wasn’t going to respond to this obvious personal attack but since you try to portray yourself as some kind of scientific genius in which some people could be fooled into believing your misrepresentation of science I had to respond so they would not be fooled.

Ignoring the obvious "supersition isn't hypothesis", you seem to make a presuppositional error that what people (scientists included) do in terms of hypothesis is in some way a result or property of "science". Firther, you make a quantative claim that I find dubious and for which you have offered no support.[/color][/size][/font][/font][/color][/size]

What I meant was that science (hypothesis) belief is no more right than superstitious belief when it comes to fact. They both believe in a “thing” that cannot be proven.

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It ties in because you said that science can explain everything and that there is nothing magic or mysterious in the universe that science hasn’t found an answer to and that is just plain garbage.

What I believe in science are those things that they have proven, not those things that they assert are correct because a formula and ten of there colleges say so. I think science can be a wonderful thing until people start believing it to be “The be all & end all” of knowledge and understanding in the universe.

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Tangible if they CAN make a Keris appear out of thin air not if they only theorize or formulate how it can be done. “I’m harder to move” is only subjective if I say it and it is not tested but if one tries and cannot move me then its proven fact!

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According to Webster’s Dictionary it’s abundantly clear that you have no scientific background!

Hypothesis: (1) a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts. (4) a mere assumption or guess.

Theory: (2) A proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. (6) contemplation or speculation (7) guess or conjecture.

Theorem: (4) an idea, belief, method, or statement generally accepted as true or worthwhile without proof.

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Oh so sorry your Royal Highness that you are unaware! A pathologist and Martial Artist researched for 10 years on cadavers in search of (chi meridians) electrical pathways of Eastern teachings but could not find them. Then he got the opportunity to search within a comatose patient whose family took them off life support and they were dying. He found what he was looking for, electrical pathways similar to veins only clear and 100 times smaller! After the patient died the pathways collapsed (no more electrical current) and could not be detected even by the best microscope.

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No it’s showing that science is not infallible and to look at the facts when they prove something right or wrong but it must be proved and not a hypothesis of why they are right or wrong

[/size][/font][/font][/color][/size]

What I call magic is something that can be done, seen, felt, etc. but science cannot prove how this is or can be.

My original message was that most things in the martial arts are not magic at all but based on superstitious explanations that can be explained through modern scientific understanding that a person could relate and understand without all the mumbo jumbo confusion.

This is the last post on this thread that I will respond to you on!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[Jerry]

I wasn’t going to respond to this obvious personal attack but since you try to portray yourself as some kind of scientific genius in which some people could be fooled into believing your misrepresentation of science I had to respond so they would not be fooled.

Of course, you realize the hypocracy of such a "personal attack" (experession of an opinion of who I am and how I portray myself unrelated to the topis at hand) which includes an "I'm a victim" claim of personal attack?

What I meant was that science (hypothesis) belief is no more right than superstitious belief when it comes to fact. They both believe in a “thing” that cannot be proven.

Dealing with mythology created to explain observed fact, there is some overlap, certainly. Though the similarity ends there. When one has a hypothesis, it's not "believed" until it can be strongly supported. The process which turns a hypothesis into a theorum contains all the things missing from supersition, cirtical review, an attempt to falsify, a search for testable and untestable predictions, demonstrative, repeatable testing of those predicions. This is why the scientific method has advanced us where superstition has not.

It ties in because you said that science can explain everything and that there is nothing magic or mysterious in the universe that science hasn’t found an answer to and that is just plain garbage.

I did not say that there was nothing that people had not found an answer to. That's simply a lie on your part. Nor did I claim that there was nothing mysterious, that's another lie.

What I believe in science are those things that they have proven, not those things that they assert are correct because a formula and ten of there colleges say so.

You would have to be far more clear for this to be usedful to the discussion at hand. You present a self conflicting statement (I believe in things proven, not things proven) by what I presume is the act of picking and choosing which proofs you accept. That said, I suspect highly that you believe a good number of things which fail your own, unspoken, standards of proof... but you are being very nebulious.

I think science can be a wonderful thing until people start believing it to be “The be all & end all” of knowledge and understanding in the universe.

What do you believe is the "end and and be all"? On what basis do your form this belief? On what basis do you reject scientific method as a proper and comprehensive mechanism to knowledge?

Tangible if they CAN make a Keris appear out of thin air not if they only theorize or formulate how it can be done.

Yuo don't know what "forumalte" and "theorize" mean do you? But yes, I was referring to the ability to actually produce said kris out of thin air as "tangeable proof".

“I’m harder to move” is only subjective if I say it and it is not tested but if one tries and cannot move me then its proven fact!

Not a control condition. My cat pushes on me and I move. Later my cat pushes on me and I choose not to. The though that I've become "harder" to move is relative to the observer here... I've performed no "magic", just made a different decision.

Similarly, most "immoveable body" acts occur through a change in root. At the most basic level, rooting removes the "tension levers" that allow someone pushing you to get a control point on your center of gravity. It's far easier to push a bookshelf over from the top than from the bottom, and rooting offers a rough analogy of this fact.

Now, if you can stand on a scale and make a maintainable weight vary... you have something more objective.

According to Webster’s Dictionary it’s abundantly clear that you have no scientific background!

Webster's is not a scientific source. The logical fallacy you are using is the "equivocation fallacy". You have chosen the definition that suites yuo, rather than the one appropriate for the scientific commuity. The one in Webster most accurate is:

a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
​

http://www.answers.com/topic/theory
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Theory
http://www.hi.is/~joner/eaps/theory.htm

Some sites addressing "sceintific theory" more precisely.

Oh so sorry your Royal Highness that you are unaware! A pathologist and Martial Artist researched for 10 years on cadavers in search of (chi meridians) electrical pathways of Eastern teachings but could not find them. Then he got the opportunity to search within a comatose patient whose family took them off life support and they were dying. He found what he was looking for, electrical pathways similar to veins only clear and 100 times smaller! After the patient died the pathways collapsed (no more electrical current) and could not be detected even by the best microscope.

A "a guy somewhere once asked for unicorns to bring him a soda and they did". If you were still posting, I'd challenge you to actually cite a source instead of offer some vague claim.

No it’s showing that science is not infallible and to look at the facts when they prove something right or wrong but it must be proved and not a hypothesis of why they are right or wrong

The scientific methos is not infallable, no. All conclusions rely on presuppositions, which are prone to being wrong. (for example, the belief in phlotzgen)

What I call magic is something that can be done, seen, felt, etc. but science cannot prove how this is or can be.

I don't believe there is anything which cannot be proven / explaind. There are things for which the proofs / explanations are currently unknown.

My original message was that most things in the martial arts are not magic at all but based on superstitious explanations that can be explained through modern scientific understanding that a person could relate and understand without all the mumbo jumbo confusion.

But your post didn't support your message. It was full of pseudo-scientific jargon and fallacy... though I've already addressed that in my first response.

 

[OULobo]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-OULobo
-MT Moderator-

 

[SilatFan]

As a member of other Silat forums. Please keep the pi$$ing match that the two of you have had FOR YEARS off MT.

I've NEVER seen the two of you do/say anything productive when you write or respond to one another. Its really gotten old.

 

[SilatFan]

As a member of other Silat forums.

What I mean is that I've read your threads, on other forums, before and they always seem to be the same thing.

 

[silat]

As a member of other Silat forums. Please keep the pi$$ing match that the two of you have had FOR YEARS off MT.

I've NEVER seen the two of you do/say anything productive when you write or respond to one another. Its really gotten old.

SilatFan,

Which is why I said that would be the last response to his remarks on this thread and it has been!

I'm really tired of arguing and I'm getting to old and to busy to do so! I will respond and defend my position once and then let it go.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[tshadowchaser]

Gentelmen I also would like to see more of a disscussion on the original post in this thread, not on what you can or can't do and what the other guys thinks is correct.
Lets have more disscussion on what some of the magic is that is so ingrained in Silat and other Idonesian arts.

 

[Kiai Carita]

Salam Perguruan, Pekho...I am an Indonesian and familiar with PGB, having spent time in both Bogor and Tugu since joining Bengkel Teater in 1983.


I will answer your questions in bold.


How can one approach the concept of magic when teaching in America?
You can only approach the concept of magic (or any other concept) when teaching anywhere, by actually having the knowledge and being able to do it. It is a common mistake amongst Western pesilat to explain that magic in silat is called ilmu. This is wrong, ilmu is science, knowledge and covers everything from computers (ilmu komputer) to maths (ilmu matematika) to nutrition (ilmu gizi) ... and so on.


Is it still silat if there is no magic?
Depends on what you call magic. Silat is definitely alchemical and has the power to transform. Silat also develops energy and sensitivity which alows practitioners to experience life in many more levels. When the accomplished silat player learns to utilate these energies it will appear to be magic. Without the alchemy it is not silat in my opinion.



How do you think the ill-defined word "magic" relates to other esoteric ideas like "chi" and "essence"?
The word magic is less precise than chi or essense, and was imported in to the silat world by non-silat players.


Magic in Indonesia often seems like a combination between real techniques and BS. Is it possible to separate the two, and if so how?
It is possible to sepparate the two if you understand at least one. If yo0u say that in Indonesia it seems such it indicates that you have observed but have not yet understood. Observing more while practising your moves would help you understand better.



I am particularly interested in what people who are either living in, or are from Indonesia have to say on this topic.
In Indonesia we generally believe that there is an other world, unseen, which mirrors this world. In Islam tradition it is called the ghaib world. The ghaib world exists and with God's permission man can study a little of it.

Selamat berlatih,
Kiai Carita.