Machida knocks out Evans - UFC 98 Results

[Tez3]

Which illustrates why people are discussing Machida as a "Karate guy" even though it makes you want to scream:
Machida STILL IS a Karate guy. No one is saying "if you saw him then, he was more karate than boxing." Yet he is dominant.

I think Marios is great.

No it makes me want to scream that people are still picking out individual arts out of the fight rather than see it as a whole and appreciating the all round skills of a fighter instead of saying that one art is all you really need to be an MMA fighter.

 

[shihansmurf]

No it makes me want to scream that people are still picking out individual arts out of the fight rather than see it as a whole and appreciating the all round skills of a fighter instead of saying that one art is all you really need to be an MMA fighter.

I see your point, and I think that we've come a long way towards that goal of looking at fighters as individual athletes and not just the sum of the parts of their training. I mean, it isn't as if there is a recipe for a good fighter, right?

Well, beyond ...

Take 1 athlete
Add copious amounts of hard work.
Mix in a generous portion of discipline.
Sift in some talent.
Heat with intensity.


Seriously though, I'm gonna continue for a bit to enjoy the fact the light heavy weight champ is a fellow shotokan guy. Yeah, I know he doesn't only do shotokan(neither do I, I box and do kenpo as well so does that make me mma?) but its nice to be able to look at the top tier of the sport and see my art represented by a guy with the gold around his waist for the first time, ya know?

Mark

 

[Tez3]

I see your point, and I think that we've come a long way towards that goal of looking at fighters as individual athletes and not just the sum of the parts of their training. I mean, it isn't as if there is a recipe for a good fighter, right?

Well, beyond ...

Take 1 athlete
Add copious amounts of hard work.
Mix in a generous portion of discipline.
Sift in some talent.
Heat with intensity.


Seriously though, I'm gonna continue for a bit to enjoy the fact the light heavy weight champ is a fellow shotokan guy. Yeah, I know he doesn't only do shotokan(neither do I, I box and do kenpo as well so does that make me mma?) but its nice to be able to look at the top tier of the sport and see my art represented by a guy with the gold around his waist for the first time, ya know?

Mark

Shotokan er alright then lol! personally Wado rocks for me

I'd add in with your recipe - good coaching staff and good cornermen, these are underated essentials in a fight, in many ways it's a team effort

 

[Tensei85]

Well, I have no doubt about that. I love America and much about our culture, I am a proud American, but a lot of our MMA fans are idiots. as stated in my last post, Machida is bringing to the lime light what may have always been there, unbeknown to the masses. I appreciate him for that.

Bisping's Gym may offer TKD, but watching him, and most others fight, he still looks/moves far more like a kickboxer/boxer than a karate or TKD guy. His stance is that of a boxer. Machida obviously does not.

There's some truth to that, but at the same time. Who can say that this guy looks TKD and this guy looks like boxer? If you understand core training principles and Anatomy/Physiology than the human being can only move so many ways to maximize power. That is how the human body works, so for instance if you see things based on the looks than its the wrong way of perceiving things. I've seen boxers that look like street fighters with there stances and hand positioning but then you realize that there baiting you, so if I would have went with my initial thought than I would have been wrong. Look at Muhammad Ali if we didn't already know exactly who he was can we really say that he looked like a so called boxer in most of his fights but when he hit you, you could definitely feel that he was a boxer. Or I prefer the term fighter, so as not to limit ones potential. (not that boxing sucks, definitely not but a person is not just a boxer, TKD, Kung Fu, etc... but so much more)

The most important thing that was brought out by Tez is you have to be well rounded even in TMA the Chinese utilize the concept of Ti Fa, Da Fa, Suai Fa, and Na Fa. (Kicking methods, striking/hitting methods, throwing methods, and locking methods) these are core principles to have a well rounded system. And I feel thats what the MMA is trying to obtain, unfortunately its a concept that a lot of TMA seems to have lost as so many are spending time on specializing in one area but my thought process and have done a little research but I feel that all TMA's at one time or another or still do utilize each methods. So based on my theory that is what makes a complete system.

Anyways the fights were awesome!

 

[Omar B]

Dumbest thing I've read was on another forum this weekend claiming he uses MT because ::gasp:: he used knee kicks in another fight. I'm assuming these martial experts think that karate don't use knees, it's the sole domain of the Thai.

 

[Tez3]

Dumbest thing I've read was on another forum this weekend claiming he uses MT because ::gasp:: he used knee kicks in another fight. I'm assuming these martial experts think that karate don't use knees, it's the sole domain of the Thai.

I learnt knee and elbow strikes in Wado Ryu many years ago long before I tried MT. and guess what? they even have Japanese names!! :uhyeah:

 

[jks9199]

There's some truth to that, but at the same time. Who can say that this guy looks TKD and this guy looks like boxer? If you understand core training principles and Anatomy/Physiology than the human being can only move so many ways to maximize power. That is how the human body works, so for instance if you see things based on the looks than its the wrong way of perceiving things. I've seen boxers that look like street fighters with there stances and hand positioning but then you realize that there baiting you, so if I would have went with my initial thought than I would have been wrong. Look at Muhammad Ali if we didn't already know exactly who he was can we really say that he looked like a so called boxer in most of his fights but when he hit you, you could definitely feel that he was a boxer. Or I prefer the term fighter, so as not to limit ones potential. (not that boxing sucks, definitely not but a person is not just a boxer, TKD, Kung Fu, etc... but so much more)

The most important thing that was brought out by Tez is you have to be well rounded even in TMA the Chinese utilize the concept of Ti Fa, Da Fa, Suai Fa, and Na Fa. (Kicking methods, striking/hitting methods, throwing methods, and locking methods) these are core principles to have a well rounded system. And I feel thats what the MMA is trying to obtain, unfortunately its a concept that a lot of TMA seems to have lost as so many are spending time on specializing in one area but my thought process and have done a little research but I feel that all TMA's at one time or another or still do utilize each methods. So based on my theory that is what makes a complete system.

Anyways the fights were awesome!

While it's true that there are but so many ways to effectively and efficiently use the human body to strike, hold, or throw, another person -- the specific tactics and strategies employed, as well as some of the methods to generate power do reflect the style. A TKD fighter may employ more kicks, for example, because part of their principles is a belief that the leg is a better weapon due to length and power. A boxer uses waist and shoulders to generate power, where some karate styles use low stances and rooting to generate power. One style may use speed, another powerful internal locking of the muscles... and so on.

Ideally, if you have the knowledge, you should be able to recognize the characteristics of a fighter's style in their fight. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of dedicated, hard, and disciplined training to reach this point; it's much easier to say that "that form stuff" doesn't really work for fighting -- and do something that looks nothing like the principles of your style to fight.

 

[Tensei85]

While it's true that there are but so many ways to effectively and efficiently use the human body to strike, hold, or throw, another person -- the specific tactics and strategies employed, as well as some of the methods to generate power do reflect the style. A TKD fighter may employ more kicks, for example, because part of their principles is a belief that the leg is a better weapon due to length and power. A boxer uses waist and shoulders to generate power, where some karate styles use low stances and rooting to generate power. One style may use speed, another powerful internal locking of the muscles... and so on.

Ideally, if you have the knowledge, you should be able to recognize the characteristics of a fighter's style in their fight. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of dedicated, hard, and disciplined training to reach this point; it's much easier to say that "that form stuff" doesn't really work for fighting -- and do something that looks nothing like the principles of your style to fight.

That's more so representing habits however. Look at systems before TKD for instance Hwarang Do, check out demo's of that system it expresses all ranges of fighting. (whats being expressed is specialized style of at one time an individual or Grandmaster) There will always be different expressions of the same style. I understand your theory about the principles of the system which is definitely correct but its not the only factor by far thats involved.

There is a lot of validity to your statement and I agree. But at the same time my point is at a higher level even the rudimentary mechanics that may resemble a set style or system it begins to resemble less and less of that specific style. Due to experience you begin to learn more and more and at the same time you become more efficient so some of the higher trademarks that would designate a particular style become smaller and smaller. Or what can be known as the evolution of fighting.

Example Ip Man's Tan Sau as seen in some photos was at a larger height with the wrist bent, so a large number of people would mimic this action thinking "well since the Grandmaster did it" it must be correct. But it wouldn't work so much for everyone, but he evolved his Tan Sau so the looks were different than what people would think a Tan Sau should look like. This is evolution based on structures, mechanics and experience.

And eventually you begin to develop your own style similar to what Bruce Lee talked about. Ask the question what was Bruce Lee's style?

We have Jun Fan, we have Jeet Kune Do, we have older Wing Chun Do.
Even though maybe not complete for Bruce but at the same time what were these? What were they comprised of?

If we say:
TKD
TCMA
Grappling
Boxing
Kali or whatever else. Its true in one sense but not in another, to me it was Bruce's attempt to express himself, at that level you can't label what he does as styles.

Of course probably none of use are at that level, so seeing everything as styles isn't so much bad. In fact I do it all the time, but at the same time that's not the only thing that is being presented.

Just my .02 again, but I agree with your statement as well.
Thanks

 

[K831]

There is merit here to what everyone is saying, but I have to ask some of you that have posted: can you not discern visually, that Machida's mechanics, movements, stance etc are that of a Shotokan karate practitioner? Or at the very least a Japanese hard style?

Can you tell, from watching a fighter on the heavy bag or shadow boxing that he is a trained pugilist, vs another fighter who you would guess studied something like Chinese Kempo as their striking art?

Machida's striking mechanics, stance and footwork so clearly stand out to me, I'm a little confused at some of your attempts to diminish that.

 

[trumpethero3]

Yeah Machida! all i'm saying

 

[jks9199]

There is merit here to what everyone is saying, but I have to ask some of you that have posted: can you not discern visually, that Machida's mechanics, movements, stance etc are that of a Shotokan karate practitioner? Or at the very least a Japanese hard style?

Can you tell, from watching a fighter on the heavy bag or shadow boxing that he is a trained pugilist, vs another fighter who you would guess studied something like Chinese Kempo as their striking art?

Machida's striking mechanics, stance and footwork so clearly stand out to me, I'm a little confused at some of your attempts to diminish that.

Absolutely. One of the things I really liked about that fight is that Machida stayed with his fight plan, and his style. He didn't look like a generic kickboxer or MMA fighter.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Fighting Arts are like Colleges. Yeah, you go to a school for three or four years and the next 20 years of your professional career they bring it up every time they mention you. Yeah, you train Karate or Kempo or Tae Kwon Do or Jiu Jitsu or Muy Thai but when you get in the cage you really have trained for the environment and the rules of the competition and not matter how much your art influences your style, you will always carry it.


What I thought was most interesting about e fight, or very telling about it, is was the rules of the competition and the form of the competition has done to the competitors. Rashad looked out of his element against Lyoto. The fighters at the level, because of the prestige, the money, the fame at stake; yhey no longer train to fight. They train to fight their next opponent. That was Evans downfall, he had nobody to train against who could adequately emulate the style of fighter he had to face. So in the end his strategy and preparation failed him against the fighter he had to face.

I think there is something telling in that when you add a sport element to the martial element of the martial art...the more you train to be at the elite level of your sport, the more that becomes the only aspect you can train for. Do you think Evans, or Machida, spent one session, one moment of the last year, training knife disarms, eye gouges, etc... In a given week, I spend a lot of time training with partners way out of my 'weight' class in techniques that are illegal by any rule set. I think there is a big difference between training to defend yourself, and training to fight your next scheduled opponent, and I don't think there isn't any one here on this board how doesn't know that. but I think it was intriguing and surprising to see it on some obvious display what happens when you face the unknown and unpredicted

 

[FearlessFreep]

I should point out that I don't mean that as a criticism of MMA particularly. I learned the same about Tae Kwon Do.

When I first started Tae Kwon Do and I found out about sparring, I figured I could just train "Tae Kwon Do", to be as strong and as fast and as smart and aware and clear-headed as I could as a person and take that into the ring with me. I learned pretty soon that if I took "self-defense" seriously than I would only ever be a mediocre sparrer because the environment of sparring is so specialized that to be really good at it, you have to spend a lot of time drilling techniques that don't really makes sense in the arena of 'tae kwon do as a combat art' if you will. If I wanted to be good at sparring, then he strength and speed and tactics I learned to spare with would have to stand for me if I ever needed self defense. But i couldn't be both a complete artist and a great competition fighter.

So I think, I believe, it applies really to any activity. If you turn the activity into a competition, over time, excelling at the competition will require sacrificing the activity

 

[K831]

What I thought was most interesting about e fight, or very telling about it, is was the rules of the competition and the form of the competition has done to the competitors.

A great observation.

they no longer train to fight. They train to fight their next opponent.

Do you think Evans, or Machida, spent one session, one moment of the last year, training knife disarms, eye gouges, etc... In a given week, I spend a lot of time training with partners way out of my 'weight' class in techniques that are illegal by any rule set. I think there is a big difference between training to defend yourself, and training to fight your next scheduled opponent,

I think it was intriguing and surprising to see it on some obvious display what happens when you face the unknown and unpredicted

I think you hit the nail on the head. Your observations lend themselves well to a point I tried to make in another thread in another section.

This is both a great asset and weakness of MMA. An asset in that they have learned to hone in on how to train and prepare for a competition that takes place in a static environment, under the watchful eye of a ref and under the protection of the rule set. An asset because teams and coaches have learned how to specifically analyze a fighters strengths and weaknesses and build a tactical game plan geared for that fighter.

A weakness because most any self defense situation meets none of those criteria. And as you said;

If you turn the activity into a competition, over time, excelling at the competition will require sacrificing the activity

I learned pretty soon that if I took "self-defense" seriously than I would only ever be a mediocre sparrer because the environment of sparring is so specialized that to be really good at it, you have to spend a lot of time drilling techniques that don't really makes sense in the arena of 'tae kwon do as a combat art' if you will. If I wanted to be good at sparring, then he strength and speed and tactics I learned to spare with would have to stand for me if I ever needed self defense. But i couldn't be both a complete artist and a great competition fighter.

I believe you fight how you train. Hence my decision to leave behind the mindset of training for “competition”.

Back to the point of the thread, I wonder how long it will take for someone to adapt to Machida’s unique (among the MMA field of competitors) Karate approach and put together a game plan more successful than his past challengers?

 

[Tez3]

A great observation.








I think you hit the nail on the head. Your observations lend themselves well to a point I tried to make in another thread in another section.

This is both a great asset and weakness of MMA. An asset in that they have learned to hone in on how to train and prepare for a competition that takes place in a static environment, under the watchful eye of a ref and under the protection of the rule set. An asset because teams and coaches have learned how to specifically analyze a fighters strengths and weaknesses and build a tactical game plan geared for that fighter.

A weakness because most any self defense situation meets none of those criteria. And as you said;





I believe you fight how you train. Hence my decision to leave behind the mindset of training for “competition”.

Back to the point of the thread, I wonder how long it will take for someone to adapt to Machida’s unique (among the MMA field of competitors) Karate approach and put together a game plan more successful than his past challengers?

It's not a weakness of MMA, I wish people would stop saying that MMA is no good for self defence.....MMA is for competition. Don't however make the mistake of thinking that MMA fighters can't however defend themselves, we aren't stupid and know how to change mindset when it comes to self defence.
How many people train full contact when it comes to self defence, do you know you can take a punch and won't freeze? Do you know that your mind will switch to combat mode if attacked or do you just hope?
Machida's karate approach is by no means unique among MMAers, it may just be new to people watching the UFC.

 

[Tensei85]

This is off topic but actually there was an amateur MMA practitioner the other day in Detroit that was attacked by 4 guys and successfully defended him self and bloodied up the 4 guys without much problem. So it definitely works for self defense.

 

[Odin]

I knew this would happen as soon as Machida got the belt.

I have a dilemma with the whole thing though since I don’t actually think it’s the 'karate'' that got Machida where he is now, I think it’s a lot more to do with his own natural fighting ability, his ''awkward'' style and his amazing timing I don’t think it right to now claim that karate will replace Muay thai and boxing as the favourite stand up art in MMA.

Like the circle that MMA goes through someone has come out of the woodwork with something new, something that many fighters haven’t trained against, something this difficult to get sparring partners to replicate ( and that is a big point, if it was just the karate then surely the logical thing would be to get some karate guys into the gym to spar with yet something tells me that this wouldn’t be too helpful )and something that will need a different strategy to beat……but alas this is what MMA so exciting and so fresh compared to other arts in that way that MMA will evolve to combat this problem.

 

[Odin]

Dumbest thing I've read was on another forum this weekend claiming he uses MT because ::gasp:: he used knee kicks in another fight. I'm assuming these martial experts think that karate don't use knees, it's the sole domain of the Thai.

You know machida did actually train Muay thai in thailand though right??

 

[K831]

It's not a weakness of MMA,

It terms of real life self defense, it most certainly is.

I wish people would stop saying that MMA is no good for self defence.....MMA is for competition.

MMA as discussed here, is for competition.

Don't however make the mistake of thinking that MMA fighters can't however defend themselves, we aren't stupid and know how to change mindset when it comes to self defence.

No one ever said an athlete training for competition couldn't defend themselves. Quite obviously they could be a force to reckon with. However as FearlessFreep pointed out so well, to excel in a sporting competition, other aspects of your training will suffer. I see it at our school. The guys who sign up for the boxing/bjj/Muay Thai classes that come as an MMA package will occasionally turn up in the Kenpo/FMA classes. They spar well one on one. They have no clue what do when we run multiple attacker drills, knife and stick work, firearm drills etc. Why would they? They don't train for it.

How many people train full contact when it comes to self defence,

I don't know. I know how often I do.

do you know you can take a punch and won't freeze? Do you know that your mind will switch to combat mode if attacked or do you just hope?

Fortunately for me, I have many life experiences and an early career choice that allows me to know this without any doubt or question. Most competetive athletes however, can't answer the question outside the "cage".

 

[K831]

I knew this would happen as soon as Machida got the belt.

I have a dilemma with the whole thing though since I don’t actually think it’s the 'karate'' that got Machida where he is now, I think it’s a lot more to do with his own natural fighting ability, his ''awkward'' style and his amazing timing I don’t think it right to now claim that karate will replace Muay thai and boxing as the favourite stand up art in MMA.

I agree, much of it is just who Machida is. As with all of us, however, our experiences make up a lot of that, Machida being raised with a Shotokan master and training so heavily in that art certainly had an impact.

Like the circle that MMA goes through someone has come out of the woodwork with something new, something that many fighters haven’t trained against, something this difficult to get sparring partners to replicate

Agreed, however I do think Machida's Karate base adds much more to this than you have indicated.