Machida admits to "banned substance" and is removed from UFC card

[Brian R. VanCise]

Agree to an extent, but also understand that these guys are not doctors. They're athletes. While I agree that they are accountable, at some point nutrition and sports medicine becomes voodoo and witchcraft for all these athletes know about the stuff. They are told by people they trust to take this, eat that, jump this, lift that. In a sport where the slightest physical edge can be the difference, I don't know that it's possible to fully know or understand what you're ingesting all the time.

True they are not doctors, dieticians, etc. but in the end they jeopardize their career by just ingesting anything. These athletes need to be smart. Having worked and lived around Collegiate and Professional athletes and being an athlete myself I totally understand the affects of friends, trainers, etc. saying take this as well as the athletes mindset of wanting to take, do just about anything to get an edge. The allure of anything that will give you an edge is almost unstoppable when large sums of money become involved and also when you age. Yet, professional athletes around the world have to work within their sports rules and understand them so that they can compete. If they screw it up in mma they won't be working and making any money so the onus is on them to really be smart about this!

 

[Steve]

True they are not doctors, dieticians, etc. but in the end they jeopardize their career by just ingesting anything. These athletes need to be smart. Having worked and lived around Collegiate and Professional athletes and being an athlete myself I totally understand the affects of friends, trainers, etc. saying take this as well as the athletes mindset of wanting to take, do just about anything to get an edge. The allure of anything that will give you an edge is almost unstoppable when large sums of money become involved and also when you age. Yet, professional athletes around the world have to work within their sports rules and understand them so that they can compete. If they screw it up in mma they won't be working and making any money so the onus is on them to really be smart about this!

All of that is true. And also, There is a lot of information out there and these guys ultimately have to trust people who are doctors, dietitians, etc. I agree that the person with the most at stake is the athlete. And I would also agree that there are some willing to break the rules for an edge.

Ultimately, I'm simply saying I empathize with these guys. they don't teach themselves Mma; they hire a coach or coaches. And provided they have confidence pin that coach, they typically do what the coach says, They aren't nutritionists. Rather, they often pay some to be their expert. And provided they have confidence in that person, they will likely focus on more pressing matters.

We do it too. If I need medical advice, I go to a trained medical professional. When I need an electrician, I hire one. It's about bandwidth. We can't know everything.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just because a lot of people are negligent doesn't negate their responsibility to themselves to ask questions or research.
How does one being a professional change that responsibility vs a non professional?
A friend comes to you and says I know you have been working out hard and trying to drop some weight here use these supplements they will help. Do you take them, if so it's on you.
Same scenario but you ask your doctor about taking the supplements and he says most supplements are good and can't hurt with the weight loss. So you take them, it is still on you.
You are responsible for what you put into your body. No one else is.

The issue is not with them doing not doing the research though. If a doctor recommends a supplement, they research it, find out what's supposed to be in it and it's not what is actually in it, how is that their fault? Do you expect people to have knowledge that the industry lies, and then know how to test it themselves on top of that?

 

[Tez3]

Do you expect people to have knowledge that the industry lies, and then know how to test it themselves on top of that?

Who's industry lies? If a countrys does then as I have said use the products from a country that legislates and checks that the stuff in the box is what is actually in there. In the UK supplements come under food regulations ( they are medicinal nor are they drugs) and also advertising law this means they are subject to the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, Food Labelling Regulations 1996 and the Food Safety Act 1990.

if a doctor is suggesting you need supplements when you are healthy, fit and have a good diet I'd be asking why anyway. There is nothing you actually need to take.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Tez-You are still assuming the average person is aware that the companies making the supplements are lying. And you may ask why, but a lot of people have enough faith in their doctors that it does not occur to them to ask why. If the professional tells them to do something, they do it.

 

[Tez3]

Tez-You are still assuming the average person is aware that the companies making the supplements are lying. And you may ask why, but a lot of people have enough faith in their doctors that it does not occur to them to ask why. If the professional tells them to do something, they do it.

You are assuming that supplement companies do lie about what is in their product, I think you'll find that the standard excuse used by athletes when caught taking illegal substances is that there must be something in the supplements etc that they took unwittingly. It's an old excuse. The truth is more likely given that adding 'extras' to supplements is expensive, the supplements are exactly what it says on the tin and the athlete has been taking illegal substances all too knowingly.

 

[jks9199]

The issue can get very complicated, very quickly -- especially when substances sometimes have several legitimate names. It is indeed on the athlete and his/her coaching team to know what's banned, and make sure that they don't accidentally/unintentionally take something on the banned list. And to keep up to date on the banned lists for their sport, too. I don't recall the details off the top of my head, but there was an Olympic athlete that made the news because they took an over the counter cold med that had been given to them by the med staff at the event -- but it contained a banned substance.

So... Yeah, this is on Machida, etc. But he seems to have dealt with it pretty responsibly, so he gets credit for that too.

 

[Buka]

I wonder if the language barrier and living in another country has anything to do with it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You are assuming that supplement companies do lie about what is in their product, I think you'll find that the standard excuse used by athletes when caught taking illegal substances is that there must be something in the supplements etc that they took unwittingly. It's an old excuse. The truth is more likely given that adding 'extras' to supplements is expensive, the supplements are exactly what it says on the tin and the athlete has been taking illegal substances all too knowingly.

Once again, I agree with you regarding athletes, and am referring to the average person. In the United States, they do lie about what is in supplements. If you want, I can find some resources explaining it and pm them to you. If not, there's no real point in continuing this debate since it's becoming pretty circular. Still enjoyed it though

 

[Tez3]

Once again, I agree with you regarding athletes, and am referring to the average person. In the United States, they do lie about what is in supplements. If you want, I can find some resources explaining it and pm them to you. If not, there's no real point in continuing this debate since it's becoming pretty circular. Still enjoyed it though

Why do you get to decide the discussion isn't worth going on with? and why do you assume I don't know anything?

We aren't talking about the 'average person' we are talking about athletes ( and incidentally most of the MMA people caught taking illegal substances have actually been taking 'recreational' drugs rather than performance enhancing drugs though they may well in fact most likely have been taking them as well)

 

[Tgace]

The whole performance enhancing substance thing is starting to get out of hand. Steroids and medical procedures? That's one thing. Stuff you can buy from the grocery store? That's another IMO....

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[Tez3]

Stuff you can buy from the grocery store? That's another IMO....

Vegetables?

 

[Tgace]

My supermarket has a fully stocked health food/athletic supplements section.

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[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I get to decide and so can you either person in a conversation can end it at any time.
I'm not assuming you don't know anything about the topic. We just have a fundamental disagreement that won't change even if we continue.
And again, I agree with you about athletes, and my comments were about the average person.

 

[Tez3]

My local shop is a farm shop so fresh meat and veg but no supplements, not even for the animals. We have a village shop up the dale and a post office in the pub though.

 

[punisher73]

Banned is banned. It's his responsibility to know and comply with the rules.
The rest is just splitting hairs.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to ban the substance DURING competition this year. If it's banned, it's banned.

My issue is with lumping a health food substance in with steriods and making it seem that Machida was using steriods. In the media PED=steroid. Many cough/cold medicines area also "banned subtances" in the Olympics, the media and the general public needs to be educated on what PED actually means and understand that they aren't all steroids.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to ban the substance DURING competition this year. If it's banned, it's banned.

My issue is with lumping a health food substance in with steriods and making it seem that Machida was using steriods. In the media PED=steroid. Many cough/cold medicines area also "banned subtances" in the Olympics, the media and the general public needs to be educated on what PED actually means and understand that they aren't all steroids.

That's the job of the regulatory agency - to regulate.
It's my job to keep up with the rules that regulate my practice in the ER. If I don't, it's my ***. Or at least my job.
It's his job to keep up with the rules that regulate his sport. If he doesn't, it's his ***. Or at least his job.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to ban the substance DURING competition this year. If it's banned, it's banned.

My issue is with lumping a health food substance in with steriods and making it seem that Machida was using steriods. In the media PED=steroid. Many cough/cold medicines area also "banned subtances" in the Olympics, the media and the general public needs to be educated on what PED actually means and understand that they aren't all steroids.

I haven't read that the banned substances he took were steroids, I think it's going to depend on what you read from what source. When an athlete has taken something that's banned for example 'cough medicine' which is usually pseudoephedrine that's what has been reported usually with a description of what the substance does and is. We've had many articles about blood doping, 'steroids' and other performance enhancing drugs in the mainstream media. it's been a big issue recently much discussed in the newspapers and on television programmes. the Albert Salazar case has had a lot of publicity here.
How easy is it to be a drugs cheat in sport? - BBC News


I've always been bemused that pseudoephedrine is banned because it's performance enhancing yet I have to fo to bed if I want to take anything with it in it as it knocks me out, I sell minutes after taking it for hours.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've always been bemused that pseudoephedrine is banned because it's performance enhancing yet I have to fo to bed if I want to take anything with it in it as it knocks me out, I sell minutes after taking it for hours.

Totally off-topic, but most of these sorts of OTC cold medicines also include some variety of antihistamine. It's that which results in going sleepy time bye bye, for the most part. It is possible to have an idiosyncratic response and become sleepy from pseudoephedrine, but it's not at all common.

 

[punisher73]

That's the job of the regulatory agency - to regulate.
It's my job to keep up with the rules that regulate my practice in the ER. If I don't, it's my ***. Or at least my job.
It's his job to keep up with the rules that regulate his sport. If he doesn't, it's his ***. Or at least his job.

Still not understanding what I am trying to say. I have NO ISSUE with what the regulatory agency says is banned. I have NO ISSUE with whatever discipline is given to Machida. It was ok last year, this year it's banned. He admitted to using the supplement. Again, NO ISSUES with this.

My complaint is the news media (apparantly the american news media since Tez has pointed out that theirs doesn't equate ped=steroids) trying to make news and equate a health food supplement to steroids.