MA Gear Store Discussion (Split from "Excited to be getting a uniform")

[Orion Nebula]

Is it just me or are those some pricey Gi's? I saw more streetwear than I did workout gear which makes sense to help keep a brick & mortar store open. What is the population and density of Portland? That would surely be a big factor as well.
For fun, it did some research on what commercial embroidery and screen print machines cost. A common machine setup is 6 spool (colors). Then it comes down to speed and the level of interpolation (shape) you need. Ones that can embroider a school symbol like ours with minimal human intervention start at $110,000 and shoot up past $1,000,000. To my surprise, screen printing is a more step heavy process. There is a wide choice of software to produce the graphic. $100 to $5000. Of course someone has to know/learn how to use the software. A G-code interpreter. $100-$200. The screen making machine. $30,000 -$200,000. The application process. $25,000, totally manual, one color. $80,000 - $500,000 for different degrees of automation and number of colors. Then there is the square footage necessary for the equipment, added utility install and the labor to operate the machines. So it would take a lot of uniforms to see any kind of payback, let alone any profit.

The beginner gis seemed priced about the same as other websites, maybe slightly higher. I agree that some of them are quite expensive, but it might be related to the branding and extensive embroidery on some of them. The most expensive one I saw was a Hello Kitty gi. I did a search and it looks like originally you could buy it from the manufacturer for $160, but it's not made anymore. So the $90 markup is probably related to its scarcity. Some other gis I compared were only marked up $5 - $10.

Portland is big, but not that big. The city itself is about 700,000 people, but the metro area is about 2.4 million people. That is also kind of crazy when you consider that Oregon's total population is only a little over 4 million. Wikipedia lists the density as 357/square mile.

Local culture is probably also something to consider. While you can get a lot of the items offered at this place cheaper via the internet, Portland loves shopping local.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't think a store front would do that well. It seems that, regardless of style, the school owner will offer gear at a modest markup that they get wholesale from somewhere.

What I think is a potentially viable model is to have maybe a small storefront with a modest warehouse, and a reliable network of wholesale suppliers. Count on 99% of your business coming from online marketing and sales.

I am not a retail sales guru but isn't that competing against yourself to some degree? Maybe a retail/wholesale model? I know the online sales tools have come a long way but there is a fair amount of expense in maintaining a good online sales website. We had a "warehouse" attached to our dojang, about 1000sq/ft. It was just big enough for drop shipments and we had a fork lift because we did not have a shipping dock. It worked well when we were bidding and stocking for the schools systems. This would have been pretty early in the online sales days and I never looked into it but I think the costs back then would have required large volume like some of the current ebay stores.

 

[drop bear]

I am not a retail sales guru but isn't that competing against yourself to some degree? Maybe a retail/wholesale model? I know the online sales tools have come a long way but there is a fair amount of expense in maintaining a good online sales website. We had a "warehouse" attached to our dojang, about 1000sq/ft. It was just big enough for drop shipments and we had a fork lift because we did not have a shipping dock. It worked well when we were bidding and stocking for the schools systems. This would have been pretty early in the online sales days and I never looked into it but I think the costs back then would have required large volume like some of the current ebay stores.

That MMA store does online shopping.

 

[Steve]

I am not a retail sales guru but isn't that competing against yourself to some degree? Maybe a retail/wholesale model? I know the online sales tools have come a long way but there is a fair amount of expense in maintaining a good online sales website. We had a "warehouse" attached to our dojang, about 1000sq/ft. It was just big enough for drop shipments and we had a fork lift because we did not have a shipping dock. It worked well when we were bidding and stocking for the schools systems. This would have been pretty early in the online sales days and I never looked into it but I think the costs back then would have required large volume like some of the current ebay stores.

I don’t understand what you mean. I’m saying, generally, a retail storefront will have 70% or more retail floor and 30% or less back stock and office space. I’d reverse that, focus less on a brick and mortar store front, and more on online, retail sales. Personally, I think services would be important, too. Embroidery, custom patches, etc.

But the main thing is, I don’t think a physical martial arts superstore would do all that well.

 

[dvcochran]

I don’t understand what you mean. I’m saying, generally, a retail storefront will have 70% or more retail floor and 30% or less back stock and office space. I’d reverse that, focus less on a brick and mortar store front, and more on online, retail sales. Personally, I think services would be important, too. Embroidery, custom patches, etc.

But the main thing is, I don’t think a physical martial arts superstore would do all that well.

That is basically what @JR 137 was saying. Just enough storefront to decide/verify what you want. Whether that is in a small brick and mortar or part of the whole such as a Dick's. Then order it and go from there.

 

[Steve]

That is basically what @JR 137 was saying. Just enough storefront to decide/verify what you want. Whether that is in a small brick and mortar or part of the whole such as a Dick's. Then order it and go from there.

Okay. So, how is it competing against yourself?

 

[dvcochran]

Okay. So, how is it competing against yourself?

In the last model it would not be. In the 70% brick and mortar model where it is only for MA or fighting/boxing, it would be.

 

[Steve]

In the last model it would not be. In the 70% brick and mortar model where it is only for MA or fighting/boxing, it would be.

Lol. Okay. I guess I wasn't clear before, because my last post was just clarifying my first,.

 

[JR 137]

Agree. I believe profit margin has to be the big driving factor for stores like Dick's & Cabela's. The lightweight Century uniforms are low end. As such, they are likely a better choice in a sporting goods store not well known for sparring gear and catering to the neophytes just getting in the game. More informed buyers like yourself have the experience to know what a good uniform is. That is why I think it would be great if you could walk into a store and say I want to look at a Tiger Claw heavyweight Gi size 5 and check it out. If you like it they could order your size, trimming, color, etc... There is so much more selection these days I don't think anyone can afford to carry all the stock. I recently had to wait 2 months for a Mooto uniform because it came from Seoul. It is a size 4 but doesn't fit nearly as well as the Adidas size 4 I purchased at the same time. However, I cannot return it and even if I could their size three would be way too small. So FWIW, to anyone looking at buying a Mooto Dobok, know that the tops are a good bit longer.

Great points. But here’s the thing with ordering - why would the customer have me order it when they can do it themself. I’ve gone into various stores and asked for things that weren’t in stock. Every time I heard “I can order one for you” all I could think was “why did I waste my time. I could’ve did that at home.” I never gave any of those the sale. If it was something I couldn’t order or if they assured me I can refuse it when it comes in, then sure. But that hasn’t happened yet.

Great example was I tried on a pair of shoes in the Clarks store a few weeks ago. They didn’t have my size in the color I wanted. The salesman says “I can have a pair shipped to your house.” My reply: “That’s ok, I’ll order them myself.” I got them cheaper and without tax.

 

[JR 137]

I’m still asking a few teachers/dojo owners I know some questions. The ones I’ve asked this far have been quite honest, in good and bad ways.

On another note...

I feel like I’d have to have everything in stock, or as much as humanly possible. As I was saying in my previous post, the “I can order it for you” line is just about always a lost sale.

And I’d have to price match online sales to have a chance. I see a ton of stuff in brick and mortar stores that are a good amount more than online. I compare store prices to online prices and go with however’s cheaper (depending on the price difference, time frame, online seller and item itself). If I do that, I shouldn’t expect too many others won’t too.

 

[dvcochran]

Great points. But here’s the thing with ordering - why would the customer have me order it when they can do it themself. I’ve gone into various stores and asked for things that weren’t in stock. Every time I heard “I can order one for you” all I could think was “why did I waste my time. I could’ve did that at home.” I never gave any of those the sale. If it was something I couldn’t order or if they assured me I can refuse it when it comes in, then sure. But that hasn’t happened yet.

Great example was I tried on a pair of shoes in the Clarks store a few weeks ago. They didn’t have my size in the color I wanted. The salesman says “I can have a pair shipped to your house.” My reply: “That’s ok, I’ll order them myself.” I got them cheaper and without tax.

That is a quandary for the retail stores. If I can go to the store and confirm a uniform is the style and size I need with a little help from the store and sales person, and a return policy is in place, I will gladly order from the store. They have earned a fair markup, BUT, I will probably know what I can buy the uniform for online before going in. If their profit margin is offset by the price of shipping, I think it is a no brainer. The days of 200% markup is long gone.
A lot of this comes down to whether the buyer is experienced with the product or not. Many people don't even know the widget they bought online had a slight defect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Great points. But here’s the thing with ordering - why would the customer have me order it when they can do it themself. I’ve gone into various stores and asked for things that weren’t in stock. Every time I heard “I can order one for you” all I could think was “why did I waste my time. I could’ve did that at home.” I never gave any of those the sale. If it was something I couldn’t order or if they assured me I can refuse it when it comes in, then sure. But that hasn’t happened yet.

Great example was I tried on a pair of shoes in the Clarks store a few weeks ago. They didn’t have my size in the color I wanted. The salesman says “I can have a pair shipped to your house.” My reply: “That’s ok, I’ll order them myself.” I got them cheaper and without tax.

A good model for this is Best Buy. They have managed to thrive in the age of Amazon by purposely being the showroom. They leased space to vendors (that's why there's an Apple section, for instance) for people to come in and touch and feel - which many people still want to do. And they do price-matching, so folks can get it right there once they've decided what they want.

I think this works well enough even if some stuff still has to be ordered. If someone comes in looking for a gi size that's not in stock, they're at least (or should be) dealing with someone who can help the pick the best way to get the fit they want, and they have an easy return path - they can order it, try it on at the store when it comes in, and return right there if it doesn't fit.

 

[JR 137]

A good model for this is Best Buy. They have managed to thrive in the age of Amazon by purposely being the showroom. They leased space to vendors (that's why there's an Apple section, for instance) for people to come in and touch and feel - which many people still want to do. And they do price-matching, so folks can get it right there once they've decided what they want.

I think this works well enough even if some stuff still has to be ordered. If someone comes in looking for a gi size that's not in stock, they're at least (or should be) dealing with someone who can help the pick the best way to get the fit they want, and they have an easy return path - they can order it, try it on at the store when it comes in, and return right there if it doesn't fit.

I agree with your second paragraph, but not a lot of others do somehow.

The best thing I could do for uniforms is have a display/one to try on that’s already been shrunk. Too many people buy them and return them because they’re huge. Classic example is my Shureido gi. I spoke to the US distributor (great people) who had me measure myself and the non-Shureido gi I had. They advised a size and told me how much it would shrink. When it arrived, it had paper clips where it would shrink to for alteration purposes.

The jacket just about touched the top of my kneecaps. When I put it on, my wife laughed and said it looked like a dress. After several wash and dry cycles, it fit just about right 99% right. After several wear and wash cycles (no dryer), it’s perfect. Had I ordered it blindly going by the measurements online, I’d have returned immediately.

If people are trying on gis that are fully shrunk, they’ll know what they’re getting. All the cotton gis shrink, it’s just a matter of how much. Something like that’ll set me apart from the rest.

 

[dvcochran]

I agree with your second paragraph, but not a lot of others do somehow.

The best thing I could do for uniforms is have a display/one to try on that’s already been shrunk. Too many people buy them and return them because they’re huge. Classic example is my Shureido gi. I spoke to the US distributor (great people) who had me measure myself and the non-Shureido gi I had. They advised a size and told me how much it would shrink. When it arrived, it had paper clips where it would shrink to for alteration purposes.

The jacket just about touched the top of my kneecaps. When I put it on, my wife laughed and said it looked like a dress. After several wash and dry cycles, it fit just about right 99% right. After several wear and wash cycles (no dryer), it’s perfect. Had I ordered it blindly going by the measurements online, I’d have returned immediately.

If people are trying on gis that are fully shrunk, they’ll know what they’re getting. All the cotton gis shrink, it’s just a matter of how much. Something like that’ll set me apart from the rest.

That sounds like you have went from "off the rack" to custom tailored. How did the cost compare to a good market brand? If it is higher, do you think your market would shrink quite a bit?

 

[JR 137]

That sounds like you have went from "off the rack" to custom tailored. How did the cost compare to a good market brand? If it is higher, do you think your market would shrink quite a bit?

It wasn’t custom tailored, it was off the rack. It was like going into a suit store without knowing your size, and a person measures you and tells you a size to try on. I was told I’m a size 5, but get a size 6 due to shrinking; I was also told after shrinking, the arms will be X length, the jacket Y length, etc. They were right on

If I have a bunch of sizes on the hangers on rack, basically like suits, I can shrink them before putting them out. The person will try it on and get the right size, then I give them a new one sealed up from the back (or wherever they are). The ones on the rack are to try on only.

My aunt is a seamstress, so I can ask her if she’s interested in coming in once a week or as often as there’s a demand to do measurements and alterations. Like she did at Men’s Warehouse while she was there (she works out of her house now).

But realistically speaking, gis will most likely be the smallest portion of sales. I got some numbers from 2 dojos so far that sell/order them for their students, and they’re not nearly enough to sustain a store. But if there’s a storefront at the right place that everyone knows of, it could get more people buying them. They don’t want what they don’t really know they’re missing.

I think the main money )for the storefront portion) is going to come from selling beginner and intermediate level gis to local dojos. I just have to give them something they’re not getting from their current suppliers - better prices, always having what they want when they need it, and dropping it off myself.

 

[dvcochran]

It wasn’t custom tailored, it was off the rack. It was like going into a suit store without knowing your size, and a person measures you and tells you a size to try on. I was told I’m a size 5, but get a size 6 due to shrinking; I was also told after shrinking, the arms will be X length, the jacket Y length, etc. They were right on

If I have a bunch of sizes on the hangers on rack, basically like suits, I can shrink them before putting them out. The person will try it on and get the right size, then I give them a new one sealed up from the back (or wherever they are). The ones on the rack are to try on only.

My aunt is a seamstress, so I can ask her if she’s interested in coming in once a week or as often as there’s a demand to do measurements and alterations. Like she did at Men’s Warehouse while she was there (she works out of her house now).

But realistically speaking, gis will most likely be the smallest portion of sales. I got some numbers from 2 dojos so far that sell/order them for their students, and they’re not nearly enough to sustain a store. But if there’s a storefront at the right place that everyone knows of, it could get more people buying them. They don’t want what they don’t really know they’re missing.

I think the main money )for the storefront portion) is going to come from selling beginner and intermediate level gis to local dojos. I just have to give them something they’re not getting from their current suppliers - better prices, always having what they want when they need it, and dropping it off myself.

I like it. If you move ahead with the endeavor I wish you the best. The first year is always tough, finding the unforeseen and perfecting your product.

 

[JR 137]

I’m trying to figure out the best area. I think basically draw a circle with the majority of the schools inside it, look at the middle, then shift it towards the biggest population density. I think the biggest concentration of the parents and adult students are in the suburbs. Problem is there’s a ton of mom and pop places that have come and gone in a few areas I’m thinking of recently.

I’m closely looking at areas where mom and pop retail businesses have done well and I’m going to start pricing real estate. As stupid as it sounds, I wonder what the malls are charging for leases. I don’t know why I’m thinking it, but I just feel like if I go to one place I lose a lot of potential people from another place, but if I’m in the mall, I don’t lose as many. I just don’t know if the mall is going to charge multiples of what other places do.

I’m also not too sure how well the retail/storefront side of things will do. If that’s going to be a small part of the business, then the location isn’t as important. But if I’m in a place with no visibility, then the retail side won’t have a chance to surprise me.

I’m also trying to figure out if a company like Century would sell stuff to me cheaper than they sell to dojos. If I’m paying the same thing they are, there’s no point in me trying to sell it to them. Why pay more to get it from me when they can get it cheaper from the manufacturer. I think carrying Century is a no-brainer. They’re well known and have just about everything. They’re not high end, but they’re high volume

Yeah, I don’t know what the hell I’m going to do. I’m still in the research stage of it all. If it seems like a good enough gamble, I’m going to go further. Right now I just don’t have enough information.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with your second paragraph, but not a lot of others do somehow.

The best thing I could do for uniforms is have a display/one to try on that’s already been shrunk. Too many people buy them and return them because they’re huge. Classic example is my Shureido gi. I spoke to the US distributor (great people) who had me measure myself and the non-Shureido gi I had. They advised a size and told me how much it would shrink. When it arrived, it had paper clips where it would shrink to for alteration purposes.

The jacket just about touched the top of my kneecaps. When I put it on, my wife laughed and said it looked like a dress. After several wash and dry cycles, it fit just about right 99% right. After several wear and wash cycles (no dryer), it’s perfect. Had I ordered it blindly going by the measurements online, I’d have returned immediately.

If people are trying on gis that are fully shrunk, they’ll know what they’re getting. All the cotton gis shrink, it’s just a matter of how much. Something like that’ll set me apart from the rest.

That would be an ideal situation. Most good gi's (not so much with the cheaper ones) have significant shrinkage afer a couple of washes, but the actual amount varies by manufacturer and even by model. So having some that are already shrunk for folks to try on would be helpful. It might even be possible to get by with every second size in the less-popular models.

That also brings up the idea of having alterations on-site, or at least a good agreement with a nearby business you can refer to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It wasn’t custom tailored, it was off the rack. It was like going into a suit store without knowing your size, and a person measures you and tells you a size to try on. I was told I’m a size 5, but get a size 6 due to shrinking; I was also told after shrinking, the arms will be X length, the jacket Y length, etc. They were right on

If I have a bunch of sizes on the hangers on rack, basically like suits, I can shrink them before putting them out. The person will try it on and get the right size, then I give them a new one sealed up from the back (or wherever they are). The ones on the rack are to try on only.

My aunt is a seamstress, so I can ask her if she’s interested in coming in once a week or as often as there’s a demand to do measurements and alterations. Like she did at Men’s Warehouse while she was there (she works out of her house now).

But realistically speaking, gis will most likely be the smallest portion of sales. I got some numbers from 2 dojos so far that sell/order them for their students, and they’re not nearly enough to sustain a store. But if there’s a storefront at the right place that everyone knows of, it could get more people buying them. They don’t want what they don’t really know they’re missing.

I think the main money )for the storefront portion) is going to come from selling beginner and intermediate level gis to local dojos. I just have to give them something they’re not getting from their current suppliers - better prices, always having what they want when they need it, and dropping it off myself.

The difficulty in supplanting their current supplier for the basic uniforms is that they probably have a wholesale account. Have you seen what the wholesale prices are that they can get? You could beat those (there's usually a volume bracket that gets to deeper discounts), but that would cut into your margin. Places like AWMA do a pretty good job catering to that market. I'd have to think about whether there's a way to provide more value.

 

[dvcochran]

That also brings up the idea of having alterations on-site, or at least a good agreement with a nearby business you can refer to.

Unless you have the volume to pay for the equipment and staff you can't justify it. Provide the service as part of your sales pitch for buying your uniforms. But farm it out to someone reputable you can work with.
Retail brick and mortar stores are taking a beating and the malls in our area seem to have fewer and fewer stores. I get the assumption that a mall would have great foot traffic and visibility. One of the big trade-offs is convenience. Your target market would likely be late teens to mid 30's; the same target are mall stores I would think. If you have the financial backing to bleed money for a while it could work. But, like you said you would be competing against Century and the like, which to my knowledge, have no brick and mortar presence. If you have enough schools and gyms to sell to, why not start out of your home/office until you build more of a presence. That way you can start the internet/wholesale side with much less overhead. Then expand into a retail presence. I have a hard time seeing retail going over in our area unless you offer something unique and custom. We are in a smaller demographic so I have no clue how much greater window shopping is there. It is close to zero in the Nashville area.