Loyality

terryl965 said:
In today market place do we really ahve any Loyality anymore withen our society or even in the work place or in the Dojo, dojaang or workout area? What is loyality in a society that does not practice what it preaches to others. Can we even truely be loyal to those that teach and mold us into better human beings? If so how and if not why?
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We should only place loyalty where it is naturally deserved. It should never be given where it is demanded as that is always false.

Most of the loyalty in our world is a falsehood based on structure, system and robotic patterns of behavior.

Loyalty is UNNECESSARY in the dojo. Why should I be "loyal" to my teacher and my class? How would it even be possible to be DISloyal to them? This isn't 16th century china - I am not likely to be "disloyal to my sensei" by helping the enemy sensei assassinate him.

If I want to train at another club, is that disloyal? No. that is just training where I wish, when I wish.

Loyalty is something that exists within oneself. To look for it elsewhere is unnecessary. Learn to be self-sufficient and you won't long for loyalties.
 
terryl965 said:
Master Arnold I have favorites as well they are the ones that will come in and ask and meditate and really go into the philosophy ot TKD. I also look upon my instructors for guide in these matter and take what they have to say to heart. Most not all would like to have more but they are not sure about what society will say, so they flock else where it is what is popular today and not yesterday.

I try and strive everyday to be better than the day before both physically and most important mentally. I have come to the conclusion I need a Vacation, but with the new school and getting rid of instructors it is not possible at this point and I have twelve students that need me everyday until National, there hopes and dram are to become part of the Junior and senior National team. So I will wait and prayer for strentgh everyday until I can rest for the complete cycle. Thank you Master Arnold for the post as always I bow to your wisdom.:asian:
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Why do you care what is popular?

The humor is those that think instructors don't know what loyalty is and that a good instructor will just give them all of their knowledge because they gave them $$. These will quickly leave, downplaying what you have, not realizing that the problem is with them. Do not cast your pearls before swine.

Learn to be self-sufficient and you will learn to be alone!

The best advise I can give you is a question, "What is your goal"

Somedays it is just that you put your Dobak on.
But right now you are in need of one!
 
YoungMan said:
I think too many people, especially in this country, approach martial arts training as some sort of a buffet where the attitude is "I pay my money every month and it's just a commodity". You buy a little of this, and a little of that. The idea that you and the teacher might have a relationship beyond merely teaching some techniques is foreign to them.
Understand, a good instructor is not just teaching you some techniques or sparring, he's giving you a piece of his soul, something he is passionate about.
The idea that I would give something I feel passionate about and not get a little loyalty in return is repulsive to me.
Now, if you just want to learn technique and not worry about loyalty, that's fine. Just don't do it with me.
In fact, before I recommend anyone for black belt, one of my first questions is: have they been a loyal student? I would also ask this question of any instructor about to recommend a black belt.
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I agree, MA is so business orientated in many cases. Look at everything else in this country. Don't like your cell phone, switch comanies. Don't like your cable/internet switch companies. What? Lower interest on this credit card, switch cards. EVERYTHING is centered around shopping around and looking for the best deal. I think this translates to the martial arts as well.

Don't get promoted fast enough, switch schools. Don't want to wait to learn higher level material, switch schools.

Is it the students fault or is it the schools that pander to that type of student?
 
DArnold said:
Why do you care what is popular?

The humor is those that think instructors don't know what loyalty is and that a good instructor will just give them all of their knowledge because they gave them $$. These will quickly leave, downplaying what you have, not realizing that the problem is with them. Do not cast your pearls before swine.

Learn to be self-sufficient and you will learn to be alone!

The best advise I can give you is a question, "What is your goal"

Somedays it is just that you put your Dobak on.
But right now you are in need of one!
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My goal is become enlighten in every aspect of my life will it happen who knows but you bring up a ngreat point about being alone, how does one learn to ne alone with so many people depending on them. This would help alot if I knew and somehow I believe you can help inthat regard. Looking forward to seeing you when I come in town with the Combat Hapkido seminar.
 
terryl965 said:
My goal is become enlighten in every aspect of my life will it happen who knows but you bring up a ngreat point about being alone, how does one learn to ne alone with so many people depending on them. This would help alot if I knew and somehow I believe you can help inthat regard. Looking forward to seeing you when I come in town with the Combat Hapkido seminar.
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SMART goal :lookie: not abstract!

When are you coming to town???
WAHOO
 
DArnold said:
SMART goal :lookie: not abstract!

When are you coming to town???
WAHOO
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The seminar is May 17-18 2008 but will probaly arrive on Wednesday and stay though Tuesday to visit a few people there. It will be me and the family Zachary get to go train at the Olympic center again. So it will be a great time.
 
In many cases, as people have stated, it does break down to a consumer buying a product. People tend to look at it as they would any other class they may take. In a college course, you do not give loyalty to your teacher/professor. You may praise or condemn their teaching style or expertise but other than that, it is just another class. Many people look at it the same way with martial arts training unless that teacher goes above what their expected performance is. If they take the extra time to work with someone who truly needs and appreciates the help, then possibly a bond is formed.

At my current dojang, when I started, I was just another student and I did have consumer/supplier relationship with my school and instructor. The more I trained, the better the rapport with my instructor. As time went by, he saw my effort and the way I worked with the other students and asked if I could teach classes occasionally. At first, it was a little awkward because I was still paying full dues but taking time away from my training to help instruct. After a bit, he recognized this and did not ask for class dues from me. All I had to pay for was testing fees and I was given a key to the school to train when I liked or teach when he needed me to.

The point of all this is, loyalty will only come from having a relationship with the other person that goes beyond simple business interactions. Loyalty springs from trust and respect which are built from having more than just a consumer's mindset toward your school or instructor.

Just my honest opinion.
 
Difference is, a college teacher is merely a giver of knowledge. You learn the curiculum from him (enough to pass the tests anyway), collect your diploma at the end, and go into the world. He is not there to make you a better person.
A martial arts instructor, in contrast, is teaching a holistic system that betters you not only physically, but in many other aspects as well. A true teacher is, essence, giving you part of himself. Not giving him some loyalty in return for he is doing for you cheapens the relationship. I am speaking of traditional martial arts teaching, where there is a special relationship between master and pupil. The closest parallels I can draw are: Miyagi and Daniel-san from Karate Kid, and the Jedi-apprentice relationship from Star Wars. Both relationships sought to build their pupils as total people, not just technique learners.
 
One major difference between the Karate Kid/Star Wars teacher/pupil relationship is that unless you are retired or have guaranteed income you are like me and doing martial arts part-time. It is harder to have a binding relationship when you see the instructor 2 or 3 times a week for an hour each time. What makes it even harder is if there are 3 or 4 instructors that rotate around the time periods so you end up seeing 3 different instructors in one week.
 
Not really. Most of our instructors are part time, and they all have built special relations with their students, obviously some more than others.
Some students consider their class something they do when not bowling, but some students treasure the 3 hours a week they spend in class. Part time or not, the relationship is the same.
 
terryl965 said:
The seminar is May 17-18 2008 but will probaly arrive on Wednesday and stay though Tuesday to visit a few people there. It will be me and the family Zachary get to go train at the Olympic center again. So it will be a great time.
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AAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH.
I really wanted to hook up again.
I will be teaching in Oklahoma that week.
Oh well, I need to come down to Texas :wink2:
 
I will be teaching in Oklahoma that week.

Where in Oklahoma?....................
 
I see that Durant, OK is only ~812 miles from where I live, according to the google maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Louisville,+KY,+United+States+of+America&sa=X&oi=map&ct=title

I would very much like to hear your instruction on the old forms, the Ch’ang-Hon patterns. I learned those as a child, when my school was associated with the ATA, and they have special meaning to me -- I learned them before we switched to the TaeGuk forms.

I could be there by land in one day ~12 hours. I need to consider if my car will make it without failing, though.

Please Sir, tell us, will you also include the "boon-hae", the applications of the forms to self-defense situations?

Also -- let this illustrate that IF I were to go to this seminar, I would of course ask my Head Instructor first. I feel confident that he would say it is the right thing to do. I have discussed this "boon-hae" with him, and he has a great interest in it. I could take this information back to my Dojang with me.

I am not an ITF student, but could get an old school style dobak to wear instead of my v-neck. Nothing like that would be a problem.



Regards,

Robert Witten
 
newGuy12 said:
I see that Durant, OK is only ~812 miles from where I live, according to the google maps:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Louisville,+KY,+United+States+of+America&sa=X&oi=map&ct=title

I would very much like to hear your instruction on the old forms, the Ch’ang-Hon patterns. I learned those as a child, when my school was associated with the ATA, and they have special meaning to me -- I learned them before we switched to the TaeGuk forms.

I could be there by land in one day ~12 hours. I need to consider if my car will make it without failing, though.

Please Sir, tell us, will you also include the "boon-hae", the applications of the forms to self-defense situations?

Also -- let this illustrate that IF I were to go to this seminar, I would of course ask my Head Instructor first. I feel confident that he would say it is the right thing to do. I have discussed this "boon-hae" with him, and he has a great interest in it. I could take this information back to my Dojang with me.

I am not an ITF student, but could get an old school style dobak to wear instead of my v-neck. Nothing like that would be a problem.
Regards,
Robert Witten
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Boon-hae, of course!
Without it these are just dance moves. :lookie:

As far as travel, drop me an email. [email protected]

As far as uniform, wear what you have as I have never found cloathing to be an intergral part of TKD. (ever been to a poor country!)
 
The whole "Buffet MA" is so readily apparent in St. L. The GM's treat it like it's the gym and you can do whatever as long as your e.f.t. and checks don't bounce.

I know of only 3 traditional orientated schools that are run like the "Old style training halls of the 60's and 70's. I have the priviledge to being part of one of them.

I have friends who outrank me in TKD come to my house and ask me to help them learn their form because they don't get the help from the black belts they need. Well at a lot of these schools you can earn your dan by just being part of the demo team. You don't have to do the poomsea, 1 or 3 step sparring, basic moves. It is ridiculous. However, every 8 to 10 weeks they are told they are ready to test for their next belt.:erg:
 
My thoughts are:

If you are teaching me for free, than I will be loyal to you.

If I am paying for a service, TKD training, then when I perceive that I am not getting good value for my money, I may very well bail on you.

Probably not the best way of putting things I know. In fact it is quite blunt to put it that way but sometimes, blunt is needed.
 
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