Loyality

[terryl965]

In today market place do we really ahve any Loyality anymore withen our society or even in the work place or in the Dojo, dojaang or workout area? What is loyality in a society that does not practice what it preaches to others. Can we even truely be loyal to those that teach and mold us into better human beings? If so how and if not why?

 

[Archangel M]

How do you define "loyality" and what do you expect from students?

 

[terryl965]

How do you define "loyality" and what do you expect from students?

To be true to yourself ands those that instruct you, I expect my students to remember who and what you really have done for them. I expect them to be honest and have the rspect to all that cross there path.

I have had student leave without ever saying a word and joining another school, do not get me wrong I do not care if they look else where but it would be nice to come in the office and say I need more and can you recommend another place. I have always giveen my formal teacher that respect for it was them that gave me so much, time has changed and people do not think that way anymore but it would be nice if they did.

 

[MBuzzy]

I think that a lot of it has to do with the impact of the "intellectual revolation" and society's general feelings. People are much less apt to believe things simply on someone's word. There is a lot more verification going on. Society leads people to question, challenge, and mistrust.

I think that a lot of the lack of loyalty comes from that. Years ago, you went to one teacher, took what they said as gospel, never questioned and never strayed. Now, students are much more likely to double check things, to seek out information on their own. I think that is what leads to people showing less respect and loyalty.

So where is the line? There has to be a delineation between a student's loyalty and their quest for knowledge. Personally, I will always respect my instructors, especially because of what they have given me in terms of knowledge and training, but if I want more, then it comes to a definition of loyalty. Is it disloyal to train elsewhere and to seek more? Is loyalty just not questioning? Or does it have more to do with simply remaining to train there and respecting what you're being given?

 

[Sukerkin]

I do agree with Terry on this.

I think in part the decline in a sense of loyalty has come about because of the way in which Capitalist society functions. There is the tendency for the economy to become dominated by large, impersonal, employers (hiring and firing on short-termist schedules)and for unionisation to be crushed out of existence.

This inculcates a take-care-of-yourself-and-devil-take-the-hindmost mindset. In such an environment, loyalty comes to be seen as a non-survival characteristic, especially if, like me, you are loyal to your employer but find that it is a one-way steet.

With such self-centered thinking in the workplace for a number of generations, it is no surprise that the whole concept of personal loyalty is fading away.

On the martial arts front, I would've hoped that things would've been a little better, given that the central dojo tenet is students learning from their teacher and maturing with them i.e. it isn't just about learning the techniques. My old Lau gar instructors used to say that when we walked about in the streets we were representatives of the school and how we behaved directly reflected upon them.

 

[Kacey]

In today market place do we really ahve any Loyality anymore withen our society or even in the work place or in the Dojo, dojaang or workout area? What is loyality in a society that does not practice what it preaches to others. Can we even truely be loyal to those that teach and mold us into better human beings? If so how and if not why?

Loyalty, like respect, must be earned - and there are still people out there who are able to earn such loyalty.

Loyalty is, indeed, in short supply in far too many areas - especially in the more cut-throat areas of the business world. In my personal experience, however, it is still available in other areas - and especially, for me at least, in the martial arts. But perhaps I've just been lucky in who I've encountered.

 

[14 Kempo]

You all touch on some good points, however, let me bring another twist into loyalty as it relates to a person's martial arts instruction. Western vs. Eastern cultures. Back in the day, a teacher took in a student and guided them through lessons that weren't only martial arts, but life. This was done without the exchange of money and therefore, in this type of situation, you all are correct, the teacher was giving them very valuable lessons. Nowadays, at least here in the US, it is not given away, it is paid for, it is a commodity. As a business person, you are saying I'll give you this for that. As an instructor in the day, this was martial arts and life lessons; that was loyalty and respect. Today, this is martial arts lessons, for the most part; that is money.

Well, I could probably go on, but I think you all are smart enough to get the point. Just my two cents.

 

[Archangel M]

You all touch on some good points, however, let me bring another twist into loyalty as it relates to a person's martial arts instruction. Western vs. Eastern cultures. Back in the day, a teacher took in a student and guided them through lessons that weren't only martial arts, but life. This was done without the exchange of money and therefore, in this type of situation, you all are correct, the teacher was giving them very valuable lessons. Nowadays, at least here in the US, it is not given away, it is paid for, it is a commodity. As a business person, you are saying I'll give you this for that. As an instructor in the day, this was martial arts and life lessons; that was loyalty and respect. Today, this is martial arts lessons, for the most part; that is money.

Well, I could probably go on, but I think you all are smart enough to get the point. Just my two cents.

Good point. Good post.

 

[Kacey]

You all touch on some good points, however, let me bring another twist into loyalty as it relates to a person's martial arts instruction. Western vs. Eastern cultures. Back in the day, a teacher took in a student and guided them through lessons that weren't only martial arts, but life. This was done without the exchange of money and therefore, in this type of situation, you all are correct, the teacher was giving them very valuable lessons. Nowadays, at least here in the US, it is not given away, it is paid for, it is a commodity. As a business person, you are saying I'll give you this for that. As an instructor in the day, this was martial arts and life lessons; that was loyalty and respect. Today, this is martial arts lessons, for the most part; that is money.

Well, I could probably go on, but I think you all are smart enough to get the point. Just my two cents.

It depends on the instructor, I guess... my instructor is very clear in the fact that dues pay for the facility, not the instruction - and given that he's been with the same instructor for 28 years, he's not just talking. Of course, that attitude is a large part of why he's been my sahbum for 21 years.

 

[IcemanSK]

I think loyalty in the dojang has gone the way of loyalty to any other "brand name" in the marketplace. The kind of thing Terry is talking about in the dojang, I've seen in churches as well. "My time & my attention are a commodity like the money in my pocket." If the tv channel I'm watching doesn't look good, I turn it off. If where I spend my time 3 days a week isn't working for me, I go elsewhere. No "good-bye" or "here's why." I just find something else to fill that need.

We teach an Art that teaches loyalty & respect, in a world where we only respect that which captures our attention next & loyalty is a quaint word our folks had to that one company they worked for their whole lives.

Investing our time as instructors into every student is our job. But, if we invest our emotions into every student, we will become emotional wrecks. We love our Art & want to share it with anyone who is willing to learn. Those faces will change. That, we cannot change.

 

[matt.m]

Well it all depends on the instructor/student bond. Is it clouded or genuine? I am looking at it from a former Sgt. in the U.S.M.C. perspective. I was loyal to my troops and peers to a T. I am not any different to my family, students or friends. Gee, I don't even want to answer the question of "What happens if.....?"

The whole thing is that you have to show the students you respect them and they will in turn respect and be loyal to you. GM Hildebrand never wants for students in TKD and HKD, I am still building Yudo. But my students have the work ethic of battle hardened Marines. They are never late, they love class, I get reports from parents all the time......"My kid is getting better grades in school." "My kid has a lot more self-confidence and is not as shy or apt to get into trouble at school."

It is all one vicious circle. Geez, I even had t-shirts made up for my class that says "Team Moo Sul Kwan Yudo."

Leadership rule #1 in the USMC NCO Manual states that "To be a good leader you have to be a good follower." So I never "Bark" at students, I just ask them to try again. Then show them. It is great. My 10-12 yr. old boys and girls can do 30 yudo pushups. That in itself is amazing considering most kids that age cant even do 10 regular pushups.

If you the instructor have conviction then the students will pay you back 10 fold.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Loyality and respect is a two way street. The instructor also should show this to the student(s). When favoritism rears it's head and serious student(s) get overlooked, bypassed or just plain ignored, then there is nothing left for the student(s) to do, but to seek another instructor/school.

 

[terryl965]

Loyality and respect is a two way street. The instructor also should show this to the student(s). When favoritism rears it's head and serious student(s) get overlooked, bypassed or just plain ignored, then there is nothing left for the student(s) to do, but to seek another instructor/school.

True but I treat all of my students the same, they are all part of the family when they enroll with me.

 

[IcemanSK]

True but I treat all of my students the same, they are all part of the family when they enroll with me.

That's the hard part. Terry, like you, I get emotionally connected to my students. The problem is, it's not always reciprocated.

I've learned to let go of my need to connect with all my students when I trained in kickboxing. Guys would come & go & I'd ask my trainers when I wouldn't see someone for awhile. He'd say, "I don't care. I've got enough folks in front of me to work with every day. I can't worry about folks who aren't here." And he was a man who cared deeply about the folks he trained. He had fighters who needed a hand live with him & put one through college! But he couldn't put himself through the emotional roller coaster of folks leaving or not showing up.

This last week, I nearly lost a family in my school due to a misunderstanding. That family has half of my students of my school in it! While I hoped & prayed they would stay, I prepared myself for them to leave. It worked out & they are still with us and happily so.

While we teach an Art that love, it doesn't mean our students love us the way the love the Art.

 

[igillman]

Part of the problem is also that different people want different things from the training. I am interested in losing weight and getting fit. I am not interested in the "sit down and feel the chi" aspect of martial arts. I apologise to all of those who are interested and feel that it is a vital part of the art, it just doesn't float my boat the way it floats yours. If the school I go to did a lot of the "sit down and feel the chi" and not much of the running around, jumping and kicking then I would switch schools. I would also switch if our instructors were too military in their instruction. I am a person who does not think much of doing 50 push ups just because I scratched my nose while standing at attention. Some people, however, like that stuff and would stay at a school that did it.

Sometimes instructors feel that the class is lacking in something and introduce something new. That may or may not change the balance of the instruction to a point where some people no longer enjoy it. Just remember, you cannot please all of the people all of the time.

 

[ellies]

I think all of you are right and it is very true that it depends on instructors and training as well. The older days didn't require the whole monetary situation, but teachers of the martial arts in some way had to sell their skills. This was done through reputation and earned respect. Then you points on money and just selling belts is a reality that my never go away. If we can find that instructor and school (and they are out there) stay with them and pass on the lessons of life and training the we get from them.artyon:

 

[terryl965]

I think all of you are right and it is very true that it depends on instructors and training as well. The older days didn't require the whole monetary situation, but teachers of the martial arts in some way had to sell their skills. This was done through reputation and earned respect. Then you points on money and just selling belts is a reality that my never go away. If we can find that instructor and school (and they are out there) stay with them and pass on the lessons of life and training the we get from them.artyon:

I would have to agree.

 

[YoungMan]

I think too many people, especially in this country, approach martial arts training as some sort of a buffet where the attitude is "I pay my money every month and it's just a commodity". You buy a little of this, and a little of that. The idea that you and the teacher might have a relationship beyond merely teaching some techniques is foreign to them.
Understand, a good instructor is not just teaching you some techniques or sparring, he's giving you a piece of his soul, something he is passionate about.
The idea that I would give something I feel passionate about and not get a little loyalty in return is repulsive to me.
Now, if you just want to learn technique and not worry about loyalty, that's fine. Just don't do it with me.
In fact, before I recommend anyone for black belt, one of my first questions is: have they been a loyal student? I would also ask this question of any instructor about to recommend a black belt.

 

[DArnold]

To be true to yourself ands those that instruct you, I expect my students to remember who and what you really have done for them. I expect them to be honest and have the rspect to all that cross there path.

I have had student leave without ever saying a word and joining another school, do not get me wrong I do not care if they look else where but it would be nice to come in the office and say I need more and can you recommend another place. I have always giveen my formal teacher that respect for it was them that gave me so much, time has changed and people do not think that way anymore but it would be nice if they did.

Terry,
You are ventureing upon questions about (differences/learning) how to be a better instructor.

I rarely venture into these areas on this board as most are not instructors and want to assert their views from a student point of view which has very little merit when you become a teacher.

I have always maintained that the physical aspect is only 50% and that if you put a gun in a students hands you must make sure that the mental aspect is correct.

I have read many posts here that dance around the subject but what you are now starting to delv into is that you must teach the mental as well as the physical.

Igillman by his statements shows you a student that you can well aford to loose as many only want a physical work out. For this they can go do aerobics. Students who decide that they are their own teacher you can afford to loose as they waste your time. Granted, giving them a hard workout is a piece of cake and I will allow them to train and pay me. However, until I have tested them and they show me their mental advancement does not mean I need to teach them or to promote them. The magic, as you know is the combination of the mental and the physical.

Everything here screams of the question "How do you teach loyalty and respect in class?"

Have any of you ever watched SHOGUN.

"A Samurai may never ask anything of his lord, however, from time to time a lord my grant favors"

Loyalty and Rewards are mear tools, like a punch or kick, that an instructor must learn to use, privately and in public, to teach students.

This is where many on this board got their panties in a knot because I stated that you do not treat all students the same. Yes they all start out the same, but many of you contiue to promote those who are not loyal, whom you have not tested, who do not understand respect.... This is your charge as an instructor to teach them these things!!!!!!!

(If you are a Martial Arts instrutor and not just a McDojo that is more just aerobics)

Then you show shock and dismay at their attitude?
So now we are talking about the art of teaching!

THE PROBLEM IS IN YOUR INSTRUCTION!

As Kacey pointed out a fine lesson that my instructor taught me is that $$ does not pay the instructor, loyalty and respect does. (Do any of you, that have been trained by someone for XX years think that the amount of money you paid is worth what you have been given?)

So I turn your question/problem back on you...

HOW DO YOU TEST, FOSTER, AND REWARD, LOYALTY WITHIN YOUR CLASS?

(Or do you just promote everyone, thinking that the money pays for your instruction, and then wonder why you have these problems? If everyone was the same then teaching would not be hard and most beginning black belts could do it and you could just trade money for lessons... like aerobics)

And yes, I have favorites... those who work out, listen, try hard, in and out of class. (not dependent on being physically talented) Everyone knows it and knows why!

 

[terryl965]

Terry,
You are ventureing upon questions about (differences/learning) how to be a better instructor.

I rarely venture into these areas on this board as most are not instructors and want to assert their views from a student point of view which has very little merit when you become a teacher.

I have always maintained that the physical aspect is only 50% and that if you put a gun in a students hands you must make sure that the mental aspect is correct.

I have read many posts here that dance around the subject but what you are now starting to delv into is that you must teach the mental as well as the physical.

Igillman by his statements shows you a student that you can well aford to loose as many only want a physical work out. For this they can go do aerobics. Students who decide that they are their own teacher you can afford to loose as they waste your time. Granted, giving them a hard workout is a piece of cake and I will allow them to train and pay me. However, until I have tested them and they show me their mental advancement does not mean I need to teach them or to promote them. The magic, as you know is the combination of the mental and the physical.

Everything here screams of the question "How do you teach loyalty and respect in class?"

Have any of you ever watched SHOGUN.

"A Samurai may never ask anything of his lord, however, from time to time a lord my grant favors"

Loyalty and Rewards are mear tools, like a punch or kick, that an instructor must learn to use, privately and in public, to teach students.

This is where many on this board got their panties in a knot because I stated that you do not treat all students the same. Yes they all start out the same, but many of you contiue to promote those who are not loyal, whom you have not tested, who do not understand respect.... This is your charge as an instructor to teach them these things!!!!!!!

(If you are a Martial Arts instrutor and not just a McDojo that is more just aerobics)

Then you show shock and dismay at their attitude?
So now we are talking about the art of teaching!

THE PROBLEM IS IN YOUR INSTRUCTION!

As Kacey pointed out a fine lesson that my instructor taught me is that $$ does not pay the instructor, loyalty and respect does. (Do any of you, that have been trained by someone for XX years think that the amount of money you paid is worth what you have been given?)

So I turn your question/problem back on you...

HOW DO YOU TEST, FOSTER, AND REWARD, LOYALTY WITHIN YOUR CLASS?

(Or do you just promote everyone, thinking that the money pays for your instruction, and then wonder why you have these problems? If everyone was the same then teaching would not be hard and most beginning black belts could do it and you could just trade money for lessons... like aerobics)

And yes, I have favorites... those who work out, listen, try hard, in and out of class. (not dependent on being physically talented) Everyone knows it and knows why!

Master Arnold I have favorites as well they are the ones that will come in and ask and meditate and really go into the philosophy ot TKD. I also look upon my instructors for guide in these matter and take what they have to say to heart. Most not all would like to have more but they are not sure about what society will say, so they flock else where it is what is properlar today and not yesterday.

I try and strive everyday to be better than the day before both physically and most important mentally. I have come to the conclusion I need a Vacation, but with the new school and getting rid of instructors it is not possible at this point and I have twelve students that need me everyday until National, there hopes and dram are to become part of the Junior and senior National team. So I will wait and prayer for strentgh everyday until I can rest for the complete cycle. Thank you Master Arnold for the post as always I bow to your wisdom.:asian: