Are you saying a tornado kick is foundational? Or that it requires good foundations?
Lower belts keep kicking me in the groin. Need advice.
- Thread starter TenHands
- Start date
CB Jones
Senior Master
Block it...that simple.
Where my son trains and competes the groin is a legal target. You should try and learn how to protect it instead of relying on your opponent
Uh, learn to not get kicked in the groin. If you were leaving your face open I would tell you to learn to not get hit in the face, learn to move it or block incoming blows, why is it a giant jump for you to learn to do the same thing with a groin kick? The first rule of boxing (and should be for all martial arts) is "protect yourself at all times." Learn to protect yourself, that is why you do karate right?
So to avoid future and apparently repetitive future injury you are avoiding low percentage injuries from your protective gear? Fear isn't rational but you aren't being rational. I have never seen a karate competition that doesn't require a cup, do yours?
Injuries or little owies? There is a difference between hurt and injured.
OP
OP
TenHands
Green Belt
The injury-to-owie ratio is about 1:30 based on an absolutely wild estimate. Of course it's mostly just bumps and bruises (which I acknowledge are a necessary evil to make one stronger in the long run) but there have been plenty of actual injuries.
It seems your students need more experience before sparring.
J. Pickard
Brown Belt
We have a very specific rule set when it comes to contact level in sparring; Never hit harder than you want to be hit, only go as hard as your opponent wants to go, if at anytime you feel unsafe for any reason step off the training floor and notify an instructor.
On top of this we have contact levels (1-5 where a 1 is stopping a few inches away and a 5 is KO power and penetration) and you aren't allowed to go past the first level until you are about a year or more into training. This way if a newbie is trying to stop a kick/punch a few inches in front of you but they aren't very good yet it turns into a light tap. Otherwise they try to tap and make light contact but it turns into heavy contact.
Doing it this way has allowed us to teach sparring to new students within the first week or two and reduce rates of injury. We haven't had a beginner cause an injury in over decade with this system in place, most injuries are from the more experienced people getting too comfortably with each other and try new crazy techniques they can't control yet.
On top of this we have contact levels (1-5 where a 1 is stopping a few inches away and a 5 is KO power and penetration) and you aren't allowed to go past the first level until you are about a year or more into training. This way if a newbie is trying to stop a kick/punch a few inches in front of you but they aren't very good yet it turns into a light tap. Otherwise they try to tap and make light contact but it turns into heavy contact.
Doing it this way has allowed us to teach sparring to new students within the first week or two and reduce rates of injury. We haven't had a beginner cause an injury in over decade with this system in place, most injuries are from the more experienced people getting too comfortably with each other and try new crazy techniques they can't control yet.
Block and change your stance.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
Block, also pivoting is a great way to avoid groin shots.
Jut
Yellow Belt
I keep reading, 'Wear a cup'. I'll ask, Do you intend wearing one in the street? If not, I'd go with the advise of Drop Bear, Buka and others pointing 1st to your stance. I don't know what style you are, but personally, I guard my lower gate with my shin using a knee-raise.
However, with all due respect.. you don't seem to be able to 'block' much of anything. I teach 'cover' rather than traditional blocking so I'm not much help there. Sometimes a good practitioner ≠a good teacher. Might be time to change schools?
I use a similar progression, though I move them into light contact a lot sooner than that. It's easy for me to gauge when, though, since my classes have always been small (usually <5), so they spend a lot of time sparring with me. Their first time stepping up to the next level is always with me, so I get to check out their ability to control the step-up.
One thing I do to reduce the chance folks get panicky and overreact is that they learn "defensive sparring" first. This is basically a zero-offense approach to controlling what you can. They get used to some light hits (most haven't had that since childhood), and learn not to feel overwhelmed when they can't get a shot in. They use movement and distancing to try to get back a little control.
Jut
Yellow Belt
I hear 2 things. Sports Karate.. "like in the Olympics" and, you wish there was a 'no nut kick' rule to fix the problem. First, it appears you're making an excuse.. stating that your Karate is just 'sport karate', therefore, it's lacking somehow. Quick story.. A young man, who was a dominant TKD fighter, worked next to my kwoon. He was fascinated with a technique called 'huen-sau', would stop by, and we'd go over its application. He had a good sabom [teacher] and although very young, he beat some very good fighters and qualified for the Olympics.
It's interesting that, once there, the head Korean TKD coaches re-trained him on many things.. kicks specifically, that, according to him, made them more efficient and made groin cover more essential. The point is, Olympic, sport Karate isn't lacking groin protection.
I would again suggest a different SiFu but I may have confused your wording of 'my school' with a MA school.. when perhaps you train in your High School?
auntlisa1103
Orange Belt
I’ve practiced taekwondo for four years (just made Temporary Cho Dan, my school’s rank just before Cho Dan, but that celebration is beside the point, I’m just excited lol)
Anyway, I remember as a white belt, during free sparring practice, being shy to attack because I’m not an aggressive person and I was afraid of hurting someone. The black belts always told me, “I’m the black belt. If you hurt me, it’s MY fault because I didn’t block it.”
(I’m still not as aggressive as I should be, preferring to hang back and defend until I see an opening, but I’m better than I used to be.)
My advice mimics what others have said. Wear a cup, block better, and help them learn better. That’s part of your job as an upper belt—to help those coming behind to learn, because you once were where they are in their training. I’m guessing you accidentally kicked people in the groin and/or knees when you were at their level. And if they stay involved, someone behind them will get your payback for you LOL
Anyway, I remember as a white belt, during free sparring practice, being shy to attack because I’m not an aggressive person and I was afraid of hurting someone. The black belts always told me, “I’m the black belt. If you hurt me, it’s MY fault because I didn’t block it.”
(I’m still not as aggressive as I should be, preferring to hang back and defend until I see an opening, but I’m better than I used to be.)
My advice mimics what others have said. Wear a cup, block better, and help them learn better. That’s part of your job as an upper belt—to help those coming behind to learn, because you once were where they are in their training. I’m guessing you accidentally kicked people in the groin and/or knees when you were at their level. And if they stay involved, someone behind them will get your payback for you LOL
- Get in so close to your opponent and position your body so that your opponent can't raise their leg to kick you in the groin
- Get so far away that your opponents can't reach your groin with their kicks
- Turn your body to an angle so that your groin can no longer be accessible to your opponents groin kicks
- Use Muay Thai style (angled towards the kick) raised knee blocks
- Step towards the kicker as they are kicking, so as to prevent their kicking leg becoming fully extended (called a jam or Jam Hit in Jun Fan Kickboxing / Jeet Kune Do).
- Have a look at the different cups on the market, there are loads of different ones now, now that MMA and Muay Thai are so popular. Some are cushioned around the edges, and some are even made out of metal that probably could stop a bullet.... lol..
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
One of the things I do to get new students not used to body contact, and especially kids, is "de-sensitivity" training. It's a lighter version of advanced sanchin training where the student is in a guard and I (using an open hand) make light contact with their arms, back, chest and thighs and do a little pushing around. It's like play rough-housing. I keep it fun so they don't take it too seriously. This helps them handle the "flinch" response and gets them used to some stress and contact. For kids, I let the parent know ahead of time for their approval - they are quite supportive.
The next step is to get pads on them and up the contact a notch. I do not fully agree with the practice I've seen in TKD where the kids spar fully padded with reckless abandon. I grant that it's fun and develops aggressiveness, but it denies the need for defensive skills and can develop a false sense of safety when in a real fight. There needs to be some balance and realism.
prophet224
White Belt
Interesting. That is a very important differentiation. That said, I have to agree with most other folks have said - new people will often mess you up because they don’t know what they are doing, they do things that are unexpected, and they often don’t hit what they are trying to hit. Their bodies don’t work quite the right way sometimes and so their moves don’t always end up where it seems like they should.
If you are doing sport karate you definitely need a cup since won’t be as much emphasis on proper protection of vulnerable areas.
That said, it is always a good thing to learn lessons like that while practicing and build good protective habits. Learn to turn your legs properly to accept a low kick or guard for a groin kick, or move.
Also have to agree with the previous comment that if you are working with lower belts that’s their time to learn more so than it is yours. Give them the time to think and set things up and perform moves correctly. That also gives you the opportunity to practice things like foot work, deflection, getting out of the way, etc.
I was about to post that sentiment, but it really is equally true for sport - just because something is not within the rules does not mean that you should not be protecting yourself from it.
To my mind the OPs stance must be too open for this to be a recurring problem (groin) and reaction time too slow for other strikes. They should be anticipating and reading the opponent in a way to avoid such strikes.
While higher ranked and/or more experienced fighters might have speed on their side, generally a lower rank is likely to signal their intent (through eyes, shoulders, chambering or wind up) - all of which should be read and reacted to.
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