Looking for a new type of training

[Ando-]

This is a personal thing of mine, so I will have to explain the whole thing for you to understand what I exactly mean, but I will try to make it short.

I practiced Ninjutsu for 4 years and Kendo for one year after that. To be honest, I instantly disliked the general thinking some people had in Ninjutsu (and more in Kendo), specially the best ones and the master.

The main teacher I had in that dojo was supposedly a well known Ninjutsu master in my country and he teaches here and in Japan, and in other countries too. I don't doubt about his knowledge of the discipline at all, but the problem is that this just wasn't what I was looking for. When I joined Ninjutsu (Bujinkan), I stayed there because the exercises they made helped me a lot with my health, I never cared about going foward to other belts, but when it came to the discipline itself, it felt really uncomfortable, because the master had (or tried to express) a high superiority complex, to the point it was really annoying sometimes. His way to explain and fix mistakes of us were kinda mean, and not the best way at all imo. And the black belts and other good students there that replaced him when he wasn't there were like cadets that only follow orders and had no clue why they did what they were doing. The masters prejudged us all the time.

This seems to be a normal thing in many martial arts, I just see it in videos and know people that also learn from them. I was never interested in the pray thingy they say before and after the class, nor their philosophy (One time another master told me how not believing in any god is the most selfish thing you can do, and I didnt even say anything about that, he just wanted to say that to someone and that was just so out of place and wrong from my point of view and more wrong things we can tell from this).


I ended up leaving because I wanted something competitive though, so I entered Kendo, which ended up being the same but much MUCH worse. The masters there literally scream to us, insulted us and treated us like crap. They said they are not the same inside and outside the dojo because that's what the discipline is about, but I still don't see it necessary at all. They also had common beliefs and also told me I must be angry and scream to attack, and that if I don't then it's just useless and nothing of what I do will be even legit. Then why to bother? I just dropped after less than a year.


I gave up trying after that because I got busy with other things in life, but now I feel like trying again. Basically, all I want is a kind of competitive training, but passive, not hateful, and independent from those phylosophical dogmas about beliefs and disciplines, that focus on negative emotions.

I don't really care if it's with weapons or all physicall, anything is welcome (try to say both if you remember though). I want to go to the thing to practice my exercises and learning from someone that just tells me how to correctly do the thing without trying to brainwash me with something about life or superiority complexes. I want an ambient where I can friendly talk to the people there without it being like the military or something ridiculous. I think generic self-defense classes might be something I'm looking for, but I'd like something competitive too, something I can practice with someone with friendly confrontations, but more of a hitting thing, not interested in things like judo tbh. (I say this because if you actually confront your friend with a self-defense technique it will most likely end just bad, you know).

Basically something that is kind of free style without all those things.


Sorry if I offended someone here, really, it's not my intention. I don't want to discuss about it, I just want suggestions for what I'm looking for.

 

[WaterGal]

The problem you describe can happen in any martial art, sport, or other activity. I know someone who studied drums growing up, and his music teacher used to beat him with the drumstick if he played the wrong thing.

The teachers you had were jerks, and their students imitated them (or the nice ones quit) and it created a bad culture at the school. But that doesn't mean that other ninjutsu or kendo schools will be the same way. There's no martial art where everyone is mean or everyone is nice. People are just.... people, good or bad.

 

[Ando-]

I just assumed it was a common cultural thingy in those martial arts.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

WaterGal has it. Puffed-up wannabe drill sergeants can be found in any martial art (and in lots of other fields as well). Friendly encouraging instructors can also be found in just about any art. The best thing is to visit any schools you might be interested in and watch a few classes to get a sense of the atmosphere before you sign up.

 

[Ando-]

You know what, that's a good idea.

 

[Skullpunch]

The main teacher I had in that dojo was supposedly a well known Ninjutsu master in my country and he teaches here and in Japan, and in other countries too. I don't doubt about his knowledge of the discipline at all, but the problem is that this just wasn't what I was looking for. When I joined Ninjutsu (Bujinkan), I stayed there because the exercises they made helped me a lot with my health, I never cared about going foward to other belts, but when it came to the discipline itself, it felt really uncomfortable, because the master had (or tried to express) a high superiority complex, to the point it was really annoying sometimes. His way to explain and fix mistakes of us were kinda mean, and not the best way at all imo. And the black belts and other good students there that replaced him when he wasn't there were like cadets that only follow orders and had no clue why they did what they were doing. The masters prejudged us all the time.

To me, this entire paragraph screams "mcdojo" from every direction. The part in bold especially paints the sky crimson with red flags. Being a hardass is one thing but that whole cult mentality thing is like a neon sign that says "WARNING! FRAUD ALERT! BRAINWASHING IN PROGRESS! WE WANT YOUR MONEY!"

But yea, the above posters are right. I've had to do some shopping around before finding a school I like as well. I don't like anything super formal and when I see that cult mentality I know not to waste my money, but I found a good fit before long and I'm a lot happier now than I would have been if I had stuck with the first place I went to just because....well....actually I can't really even think of a reason to have done that.

 

[drop bear]

The most fun I have had doing martial arts was capoera. And comes from a different culture that puts emphasis on different ideals.

Generally the atmosphere is pretty cruisy. Which is part of the idals built into the system.

 

[Langenschwert]

HEMA. Swords are awesome. Don't know if there's any in Argentina though. Barring that, and kind of wrestling/Judo or stickfighting is an amazing amount of fun.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Ando,

This is a personal thing of mine, so I will have to explain the whole thing for you to understand what I exactly mean, but I will try to make it short.

Okay. And I, for my part, will be somewhat blunt… so I'll start by asking your forgiveness for that. But this most likely won't be something pleasant for you to hear… however I feel (and hope) that you can take some time afterwards, and reflect on the realities of your situation.

I practiced Ninjutsu for 4 years and Kendo for one year after that. To be honest, I instantly disliked the general thinking some people had in Ninjutsu (and more in Kendo), specially the best ones and the master.

Okay. The immediate question would be what you didn't like in the "general thinking"… but a more important one would be "why would you train in something where you didn't like what you were being shown as the end result (the seniors and instructors)?"

The main teacher I had in that dojo was supposedly a well known Ninjutsu master in my country and he teaches here and in Japan, and in other countries too. I don't doubt about his knowledge of the discipline at all, but the problem is that this just wasn't what I was looking for.

Okay, if it wasn't what you were looking for, that's fine… but the issue doesn't appear to be with the schools, from what I'm reading here.

When I joined Ninjutsu (Bujinkan), I stayed there because the exercises they made helped me a lot with my health, I never cared about going foward to other belts, but when it came to the discipline itself, it felt really uncomfortable, because the master had (or tried to express) a high superiority complex, to the point it was really annoying sometimes.

This might be down to issues in communication, but it's possible that you simply misinterpreted the way he was instructing… after all, he would definitely know a lot more about the art than you do (or did), which can lead to a lot of "it's done this way" hard and fast comments… or he could have simply been more than a little arrogant in his teaching methods (not uncommon, especially when coupled with high rank in the Bujinkan, which can come with less experience than other arts)… or, as you say you were training "years ago" (your other thread), and you're currently 23 (according to your profile), then we are likely talking about the perspective of a young child dealing with the idea of a grown man giving instruction, and being seen as overbearing or "superior".

The point is that we're dealing with your perspective, which is now quite removed from the events, and likely were formed when very young, and unable to really grasp what was going on.

His way to explain and fix mistakes of us were kinda mean, and not the best way at all imo.

Based on what perspective? How long have you been teaching martial arts? What is the best method? Do you think there is only one way to explain? Again, we're dealing with the removed perspective of someone who seems to honestly not be suited to anything other than the most gentle, cotton-wool swaddled environment…

And the black belts and other good students there that replaced him when he wasn't there were like cadets that only follow orders and had no clue why they did what they were doing. The masters prejudged us all the time.

How do you know that? Were they simply following the lesson plan he had laid out? I mean, if you were young (children's class), then having things kept simple and basic is really to be expected… going off book would be discouraged… I have no idea how you would know what clue such seniors would have about what they were doing either… did you ask them? And as for them "prejudging you"… well, have you considered that they didn't actually do that, but instead presented lessons based on watching you (and the other kids) over your time (4 years in your case). That's observation, not pre-judging. Couple that with your seeming disinterest in anything to do with the actual lessons, and I wouldn't blame them for being a little more direct in their dealings, frankly.

This seems to be a normal thing in many martial arts,

Yes, discipline and some form of strict instruction is a part of many, if not most martial arts and classes… which leads me to believe that your recognition of this fact means that your description and complaints against your former schools is really your own issue… and something you'll encounter at any school you go to.

The following is a blog on teaching approaches, which show that what you're complaining about is a part of it all… not the whole thing, obviously, but definitely a part:The Budo Bum: Who Is Your Teacher?

I just see it in videos and know people that also learn from them. I was never interested in the pray thingy they say before and after the class, nor their philosophy (One time another master told me how not believing in any god is the most selfish thing you can do, and I didnt even say anything about that, he just wanted to say that to someone and that was just so out of place and wrong from my point of view and more wrong things we can tell from this).

So… you - "disliked the general thinking… specifically (from) the best one(s) and the master"…
- "never cared about going forward to the other belts"…
- felt that "when it came to the discipline itself, it felt really uncomfortable"…
- were "never interested in the pray thingy… nor their philosophy"…

Hmm. You seem to have not been particularly interested in the actual classes themselves… in addition to you not wanting something as "dogmatically disciplined as ninjutsu", which, for the record, is potentially one of the least "dogmatically disciplined" systems (at least in the Bujinkan, where you studied) around, and the impression I'm getting is that, well, you're simply not suited to any martial study at this point.

I ended up leaving because I wanted something competitive though, so I entered Kendo, which ended up being the same but much MUCH worse.

Of course it did. Competitive means there has to be a drive to win… which will make it more aggressive… which will simply ramp up all the "discipline" you didn't want in the first place.

The masters there literally scream to us, insulted us and treated us like crap. They said they are not the same inside and outside the dojo because that's what the discipline is about, but I still don't see it necessary at all.

Again, what are you basing your claim of "not necessary at all" on? How many decades have you studied Kendo? How much do you understand of sport psychology? Coaching methods and approaches?

Look, if they were genuinely insulting you (and the other students) all the time, that's one thing… but the impression I'm getting is that this is your perspective, more than the reality.

They also had common beliefs and also told me I must be angry and scream to attack, and that if I don't then it's just useless and nothing of what I do will be even legit. Then why to bother? I just dropped after less than a year.

You do know that a big part of scoring in Kendo is the attitude shown when you strike, yeah? In other words, if you get your hit off, but it's not accompanied by the proper show of spirit (which is in part done by shouting the target), then you don't get the point… so yeah, without it, why bother? You're not doing Kendo then.

I gave up trying after that because I got busy with other things in life, but now I feel like trying again. Basically, all I want is a kind of competitive training, but passive, not hateful, and independent from those phylosophical dogmas about beliefs and disciplines, that focus on negative emotions.

So you want something that's competitive, but not aggressive, a martial art, but free from cultural aspects and philosophical commentary which is largely what helps shape and define them in the first place? You understand this is like asking for chocolate ice-cream, but to have it nutritious, hot, and preferably not brown, yeah? In other words, you're asking for something that doesn't exist.

I don't really care if it's with weapons or all physicall, anything is welcome (try to say both if you remember though). I want to go to the thing to practice my exercises and learning from someone that just tells me how to correctly do the thing without trying to brainwash me with something about life or superiority complexes. I want an ambient where I can friendly talk to the people there without it being like the military or something ridiculous.

You are, frankly, in absolutely no position to tell anyone how to teach their art to you. That's the first thing to realise. Now, if you don't like the atmosphere, the style of teaching, there's nothing making you go to that school… but the simple reality is that you attend the school that teaches what you want to learn, and trust the teachers to know the best way to teach you. I mean… the way you're describing your ideal training environment you basically just want to do what you want, and be gently encouraged along the way, with no real strict instruction at all… molly-coddled all the way. And, frankly, that's not going to happen. Your instructor is not your mother, they're not there to make you feel good, they're there to given you the guidance you need to develop skill in the art. And that's not always a pleasant experience… but it's the way things work. Frankly, deal with it.

I think generic self-defense classes might be something I'm looking for, but I'd like something competitive too, something I can practice with someone with friendly confrontations, but more of a hitting thing, not interested in things like judo tbh. (I say this because if you actually confront your friend with a self-defense technique it will most likely end just bad, you know).

Er… what? You want something you can do with a friend who isn't training with you, and are concerned about Judo because self defence moves can go wrong?

Look… if you want something competitive based around striking, look to Tae Kwon Do, or Boxing… and be prepared to be yelled at, told you need to be aggressive, and more. That's kinda a major trait of competitive training, you know… no weapons, of course. But competitive arts tend to focus only on one area, rather than multiple foci, so don't expect multiple disciplines in such a school, if you actually end up at one.

Basically something that is kind of free style without all those things.

Yeah… you're never going to find anything like this.

Sorry if I offended someone here, really, it's not my intention. I don't want to discuss about it, I just want suggestions for what I'm looking for.

You haven't offended anyone… however, there is nothing that exists that's what you're after… as, honestly, you come across as someone who has no interest in genuine martial art study… you just want to feel good. You need to either deal with the reality of how martial arts are taught and trained, and find a school… or don't.

I just assumed it was a common cultural thingy in those martial arts.

So you recognise that your issues are really simply your perspective on the way martial arts are taught, but still ask for systems that aren't like it?

The problem you describe can happen in any martial art, sport, or other activity. I know someone who studied drums growing up, and his music teacher used to beat him with the drumstick if he played the wrong thing.

The teachers you had were jerks, and their students imitated them (or the nice ones quit) and it created a bad culture at the school. But that doesn't mean that other ninjutsu or kendo schools will be the same way. There's no martial art where everyone is mean or everyone is nice. People are just.... people, good or bad.

Yeah… the thing is, what he's described isn't much different to the standard martial art teaching approach (include discipline, have a "drill sergeant" approach, at least in part, be aggressive in competitive systems and so on)… so I don't know that I'd class his teachers as "jerks". More likely that it's his misunderstand from when he was training as a kid.

To me, this entire paragraph screams "mcdojo" from every direction. The part in bold especially paints the sky crimson with red flags. Being a hardass is one thing but that whole cult mentality thing is like a neon sign that says "WARNING! FRAUD ALERT! BRAINWASHING IN PROGRESS! WE WANT YOUR MONEY!"

Er… what in that screams "fraud"? This was a Bujinkan school, so so long as that wasn't just using their name with no connection, there's no fraud there… and the OP's perspective of "brain washing" is not something I'm taking at face value. But really, there's nothing in there that suggests "brain washing", "mcdojo", or anything of the kind.

But yea, the above posters are right. I've had to do some shopping around before finding a school I like as well. I don't like anything super formal and when I see that cult mentality I know not to waste my money, but I found a good fit before long and I'm a lot happier now than I would have been if I had stuck with the first place I went to just because....well....actually I can't really even think of a reason to have done that.

Sure, finding a school that suits you is the way to go… but the OP's list of complaints come across as him wanting to have something that doesn't exist. And, for the record, I have seen no indications of anything "cult" in any of his complaints… the closest is his perspective that the seniors who took his classes "didn't know why they did anything"… but I personally find that rather difficult to believe.

 

[drop bear]

Hi Ando,



Okay. And I, for my part, will be somewhat blunt… so I'll start by asking your forgiveness for that. But this most likely won't be something pleasant for you to hear… however I feel (and hope) that you can take some time afterwards, and reflect on the realities of your situation.



Okay. The immediate question would be what you didn't like in the "general thinking"… but a more important one would be "why would you train in something where you didn't like what you were being shown as the end result (the seniors and instructors)?"



Okay, if it wasn't what you were looking for, that's fine… but the issue doesn't appear to be with the schools, from what I'm reading here.



This might be down to issues in communication, but it's possible that you simply misinterpreted the way he was instructing… after all, he would definitely know a lot more about the art than you do (or did), which can lead to a lot of "it's done this way" hard and fast comments… or he could have simply been more than a little arrogant in his teaching methods (not uncommon, especially when coupled with high rank in the Bujinkan, which can come with less experience than other arts)… or, as you say you were training "years ago" (your other thread), and you're currently 23 (according to your profile), then we are likely talking about the perspective of a young child dealing with the idea of a grown man giving instruction, and being seen as overbearing or "superior".

The point is that we're dealing with your perspective, which is now quite removed from the events, and likely were formed when very young, and unable to really grasp what was going on.



Based on what perspective? How long have you been teaching martial arts? What is the best method? Do you think there is only one way to explain? Again, we're dealing with the removed perspective of someone who seems to honestly not be suited to anything other than the most gentle, cotton-wool swaddled environment…



How do you know that? Were they simply following the lesson plan he had laid out? I mean, if you were young (children's class), then having things kept simple and basic is really to be expected… going off book would be discouraged… I have no idea how you would know what clue such seniors would have about what they were doing either… did you ask them? And as for them "prejudging you"… well, have you considered that they didn't actually do that, but instead presented lessons based on watching you (and the other kids) over your time (4 years in your case). That's observation, not pre-judging. Couple that with your seeming disinterest in anything to do with the actual lessons, and I wouldn't blame them for being a little more direct in their dealings, frankly.



Yes, discipline and some form of strict instruction is a part of many, if not most martial arts and classes… which leads me to believe that your recognition of this fact means that your description and complaints against your former schools is really your own issue… and something you'll encounter at any school you go to.

The following is a blog on teaching approaches, which show that what you're complaining about is a part of it all… not the whole thing, obviously, but definitely a part:The Budo Bum: Who Is Your Teacher?



So… you - "disliked the general thinking… specifically (from) the best one(s) and the master"…
- "never cared about going forward to the other belts"…
- felt that "when it came to the discipline itself, it felt really uncomfortable"…
- were "never interested in the pray thingy… nor their philosophy"…

Hmm. You seem to have not been particularly interested in the actual classes themselves… in addition to you not wanting something as "dogmatically disciplined as ninjutsu", which, for the record, is potentially one of the least "dogmatically disciplined" systems (at least in the Bujinkan, where you studied) around, and the impression I'm getting is that, well, you're simply not suited to any martial study at this point.



Of course it did. Competitive means there has to be a drive to win… which will make it more aggressive… which will simply ramp up all the "discipline" you didn't want in the first place.



Again, what are you basing your claim of "not necessary at all" on? How many decades have you studied Kendo? How much do you understand of sport psychology? Coaching methods and approaches?

Look, if they were genuinely insulting you (and the other students) all the time, that's one thing… but the impression I'm getting is that this is your perspective, more than the reality.



You do know that a big part of scoring in Kendo is the attitude shown when you strike, yeah? In other words, if you get your hit off, but it's not accompanied by the proper show of spirit (which is in part done by shouting the target), then you don't get the point… so yeah, without it, why bother? You're not doing Kendo then.



So you want something that's competitive, but not aggressive, a martial art, but free from cultural aspects and philosophical commentary which is largely what helps shape and define them in the first place? You understand this is like asking for chocolate ice-cream, but to have it nutritious, hot, and preferably not brown, yeah? In other words, you're asking for something that doesn't exist.



You are, frankly, in absolutely no position to tell anyone how to teach their art to you. That's the first thing to realise. Now, if you don't like the atmosphere, the style of teaching, there's nothing making you go to that school… but the simple reality is that you attend the school that teaches what you want to learn, and trust the teachers to know the best way to teach you. I mean… the way you're describing your ideal training environment you basically just want to do what you want, and be gently encouraged along the way, with no real strict instruction at all… molly-coddled all the way. And, frankly, that's not going to happen. Your instructor is not your mother, they're not there to make you feel good, they're there to given you the guidance you need to develop skill in the art. And that's not always a pleasant experience… but it's the way things work. Frankly, deal with it.



Er… what? You want something you can do with a friend who isn't training with you, and are concerned about Judo because self defence moves can go wrong?

Look… if you want something competitive based around striking, look to Tae Kwon Do, or Boxing… and be prepared to be yelled at, told you need to be aggressive, and more. That's kinda a major trait of competitive training, you know… no weapons, of course. But competitive arts tend to focus only on one area, rather than multiple foci, so don't expect multiple disciplines in such a school, if you actually end up at one.



Yeah… you're never going to find anything like this.



You haven't offended anyone… however, there is nothing that exists that's what you're after… as, honestly, you come across as someone who has no interest in genuine martial art study… you just want to feel good. You need to either deal with the reality of how martial arts are taught and trained, and find a school… or don't.



So you recognise that your issues are really simply your perspective on the way martial arts are taught, but still ask for systems that aren't like it?



Yeah… the thing is, what he's described isn't much different to the standard martial art teaching approach (include discipline, have a "drill sergeant" approach, at least in part, be aggressive in competitive systems and so on)… so I don't know that I'd class his teachers as "jerks". More likely that it's his misunderstand from when he was training as a kid.



Er… what in that screams "fraud"? This was a Bujinkan school, so so long as that wasn't just using their name with no connection, there's no fraud there… and the OP's perspective of "brain washing" is not something I'm taking at face value. But really, there's nothing in there that suggests "brain washing", "mcdojo", or anything of the kind.



Sure, finding a school that suits you is the way to go… but the OP's list of complaints come across as him wanting to have something that doesn't exist. And, for the record, I have seen no indications of anything "cult" in any of his complaints… the closest is his perspective that the seniors who took his classes "didn't know why they did anything"… but I personally find that rather difficult to believe.

I was wondering if you would turn up and validate OP,s complaints.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sure, finding a school that suits you is the way to go… but the OP's list of complaints come across as him wanting to have something that doesn't exist.

In other words, you're asking for something that doesn't exist.

Eh...maybe.

I had a lot of the same thoughts as you and I agree that it's quite possible the OP's perspective as presented isn't that accurate. Given the subjective nature of most of the complaints and the age that he would have been training at, it's hard for us to know how much credence to give his description of his instruction. There were one or two clues in the original post that you didn't mention which make me think you might be correct.

That said, it is possible to allow for a much more charitable interpretation of where the OP is coming from.

Maybe his Bujinkan instructor really was an egomaniac with an overly harsh approach to correction. That wouldn't match my experience with the Bujinkan, but the Buj is vast. It contains multitudes. Certainly the instructor who told him that "not believing in any god is the most selfish thing you can do" was out of line.

Maybe his Kendo instructors really did scream at and insult the students. There are dojos where that sort of thing happens. Maybe the OP was just being oversensitive. We weren't there. We don't know.

Bottom line - there are plenty of schools out there where the instructors don't have big egos, don't make a big deal out of any religious or cultural trappings, and offer constructive feedback rather than harsh criticism. If that's what the OP wants, he can find them. If he's actually too oversensitive and close-minded to fit in to any school ... then he won't have much luck. Either way, I think the best thing is for him to follow my suggestion and watch a few classes to see if a school seems right for him before signing up anywhere.

but the simple reality is that you attend the school that teaches what you want to learn, and trust the teachers to know the best way to teach you.

Unless the student has their heart set on a specific art which is only available from one school, then they have choices. Everybody learns differently and in many cases I would place a higher priority on finding an instructor whose teaching style is a good fit for the student than on finding a particular art.

 

[lklawson]

Hi Ando,



Okay. And I, for my part, will be somewhat blunt… so I'll start by asking your forgiveness for that. But this most likely won't be something pleasant for you to hear… however I feel (and hope) that you can take some time afterwards, and reflect on the realities of your situation.

I'm sorry Chris, no offense, but I disagree with most of your base assumptions and conclusions in this. I think you misunderstood what the posters complaint was and that led to a bunch of conclusions which weren't necessarily in line with what the issue was.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

This is a personal thing of mine, so I will have to explain the whole thing for you to understand what I exactly mean, but I will try to make it short.

I practiced Ninjutsu for 4 years and Kendo for one year after that. To be honest, I instantly disliked the general thinking some people had in Ninjutsu (and more in Kendo), specially the best ones and the master.

The main teacher I had in that dojo was supposedly a well known Ninjutsu master in my country and he teaches here and in Japan, and in other countries too. I don't doubt about his knowledge of the discipline at all, but the problem is that this just wasn't what I was looking for. When I joined Ninjutsu (Bujinkan), I stayed there because the exercises they made helped me a lot with my health, I never cared about going foward to other belts, but when it came to the discipline itself, it felt really uncomfortable, because the master had (or tried to express) a high superiority complex, to the point it was really annoying sometimes. His way to explain and fix mistakes of us were kinda mean, and not the best way at all imo. And the black belts and other good students there that replaced him when he wasn't there were like cadets that only follow orders and had no clue why they did what they were doing. The masters prejudged us all the time.

This seems to be a normal thing in many martial arts, I just see it in videos and know people that also learn from them. I was never interested in the pray thingy they say before and after the class, nor their philosophy (One time another master told me how not believing in any god is the most selfish thing you can do, and I didnt even say anything about that, he just wanted to say that to someone and that was just so out of place and wrong from my point of view and more wrong things we can tell from this).


I ended up leaving because I wanted something competitive though, so I entered Kendo, which ended up being the same but much MUCH worse. The masters there literally scream to us, insulted us and treated us like crap. They said they are not the same inside and outside the dojo because that's what the discipline is about, but I still don't see it necessary at all. They also had common beliefs and also told me I must be angry and scream to attack, and that if I don't then it's just useless and nothing of what I do will be even legit. Then why to bother? I just dropped after less than a year.

Meh. Never happened to me. I've never been in a dojo or training hall or salle in which the instructors treated me like I was beneath them or where they seem to be egomaniacs nor have ever trained in a place where the instructor believed he was a stereotypical drill sergeant. That said, there are some schools in which the instructor does act as if he is a drill sergeant. This is for two reasons. One reason is because that is how he was trained. Another reason is because that is how some students want to be trained. Some students feel more comfortable or believe that is the best way or even the only way of effective training. Nevertheless, it is not representative of all schools everywhere, nor do I believe it is even particularly common. If I had trained at a school where the instructor thought he was a drill sergeant or considered it a part of training to yell and insult me then I would simply leave and see training elsewhere. This is why I always recommend to people who are asking my advice to go and visit the School several times and see what the environment is like what the school training is like how they teach each other and how they train with each other. You should be able to go and observe several classes without making a commitment. If you find that the training style is simply not for you, then go someplace else and find something that is for you. Instructor styles are much like managerial styles. There are all kinds you just need to find one that fits with you.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Chris Parker]

I was wondering if you would turn up and validate OP,s complaints.

My comments cannot validate or invalidate anything in the OP's complaints… but thanks for playing.

Eh...maybe.

I had a lot of the same thoughts as you and I agree that it's quite possible the OP's perspective as presented isn't that accurate. Given the subjective nature of most of the complaints and the age that he would have been training at, it's hard for us to know how much credence to give his description of his instruction. There were one or two clues in the original post that you didn't mention which make me think you might be correct.

Yeah, there's a number of things I didn't include (for a couple of reasons)…

That said, it is possible to allow for a much more charitable interpretation of where the OP is coming from.

Also true. If I'm to be more charitable myself, I'd also attribute some of the confusion to a language issue, with English not being the OP's first language (although it's a lot better, written at least, than many "native" speakers!)… as well as the age at the time, and other factors. However, the OP is now an adult (23), and everyone else was being charitable, taking it on face value… so I decided to take the opposite tact. Perhaps a little harsh, sure, but I feel warranted if accurate.

Maybe his Bujinkan instructor really was an egomaniac with an overly harsh approach to correction. That wouldn't match my experience with the Bujinkan, but the Buj is vast. It contains multitudes.

Also very true. As with yourself, I haven't really come across anyone that would suit that description in the Bujinkan… closest would be egomaniacs who like to feel big by beating on their students… but not impossible.

Certainly the instructor who told him that "not believing in any god is the most selfish thing you can do" was out of line.

Assuming that the translation is accurate, and that's what the instructor actually said, of course. Again, it doesn't match anything I've come across in any Bujinkan (or other) dojo's teachings at all… one of the closest I can think of is a misinterpretation of Musashi's "Respect Buddha and the Gods, but do not rely on them"… other than that, it'd likely be part of that particular individual (instructors) personal belief system… and I'd completely agree that pushing that hardline commentary on what was likely a group including kids, would be completely out of line. It is interesting, though, that the OP seems to be complaining about both the presence of a "prayer" at the beginning of the class, and the comment against atheism… which is part of a pattern I'm noticing. Not wanting any overt religious aspects is again, all fine and well… well within the rights of anyone, really… but sticking with it for 4 years, while not being interested in much of the actual class content at all, other than "some exercises for health", then I think some of the blame can be reasonably placed at the OP's feet.

Maybe his Kendo instructors really did scream at and insult the students. There are dojos where that sort of thing happens. Maybe the OP was just being oversensitive. We weren't there. We don't know.

Kendo instructors yelling, trying to instil an "aggressive attitude" etc, that's pretty standard, really (especially considering the way Kendo matches are scored)… what I'm less sure of is whether or not the OP was interpreting this aggressive coaching style as "insults" and so on, or whether they were being genuinely abusive towards the students. We also don't know how the OP was behaving in these classes… if they were being distracted, not paying attention, continually being given the simplest instructions and ignoring them, or what. As you say, we weren't there.

Bottom line - there are plenty of schools out there where the instructors don't have big egos, don't make a big deal out of any religious or cultural trappings, and offer constructive feedback rather than harsh criticism. If that's what the OP wants, he can find them.

Yep.

If he's actually too oversensitive and close-minded to fit in to any school ... then he won't have much luck

.

Which is closer to the impression I'm getting.

Either way, I think the best thing is for him to follow my suggestion and watch a few classes to see if a school seems right for him before signing up anywhere.

Agreed, and stated as such in my first post here.

Unless the student has their heart set on a specific art which is only available from one school, then they have choices. Everybody learns differently and in many cases I would place a higher priority on finding an instructor whose teaching style is a good fit for the student than on finding a particular art.

And again, agreed. Thing is, I don't think he'll find anything… he wants something competitive, but not aggressive, a system that focuses on performance in competition, but is passive and laid back so there's no pressure, something that's devoid of philosophical teachings, which would only leave physical methods, and that in a competitive system isn't going to be "passive".

My sincere, honest belief is that what he states he wants is something to make him feel good about himself, with no pressure, where he can be a winner. And frankly, I think you and I both know how I would regard such a personality.

I'm sorry Chris, no offense, but I disagree with most of your base assumptions and conclusions in this. I think you misunderstood what the posters complaint was and that led to a bunch of conclusions which weren't necessarily in line with what the issue was.

No offence taken at all, Kirk. Actually, I appreciate that you hit "Disagree" and backed that up with what you disagreed with! That said, I was taking my conclusion from the posts presented both in this and the other thread from the OP… and, in re-reading them a number of times, I still feel that I'm on the right track… or, at least, closer than simply accepting that these apparently well-attended and successful schools for both the Bujinkan and Kendo were full of people that were such negative teachers and fellow students. The odds of one person seeing attacks everywhere, when they don't actually exist, is more likely than someone who is genuinely being attacked and abusively taught in every school they go to. Especially when the poster themselves observes that such teaching approaches are "a normal thing in martial arts"… and "a common cultural thingy in those martial arts"…

 

[drop bear]

My comments cannot validate or invalidate anything in the OP's complaints… but thanks for playing.

Yep. Ninjas are neither highly critical or pedantic now here is my 40 part highly critical response as to why you are wrong.

Nice work.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The odds of one person seeing attacks everywhere, when they don't actually exist, is more likely than someone who is genuinely being attacked and abusively taught in every school they go to.

I would absolutely agree if we were talking about 3-4 schools. In this case "every school" is a sample size of 2. There's cause for suspicion, granted, but it doesn't strain credulity too much to suppose that someone might run across two schools in a row run by jerks.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep. Ninjas are neither highly critical or pedantic now here is my 40 part highly critical response as to why you are wrong.

Nice work.

You really don't get how words work, do you?

I would absolutely agree if we were talking about 3-4 schools. In this case "every school" is a sample size of 2. There's cause for suspicion, granted, but it doesn't strain credulity too much to suppose that someone might run across two schools in a row run by jerks.

He has direct experience in two schools, yeah… and then said that he sees it as common to many martial arts… which he's seen in videos and other forms… and is noticeably common enough for him to recognise, and even attribute to the culture of (those) martial arts. That, to me, suggests looking around at more than just his two schools… and, if what he sees that he didn't like there is apparently everywhere in martial arts, coupled with his desire to have his "competitive training" to be "passive"… I think we're going beyond just two schools here.

 

[drop bear]

You really don't get how words work, do you?

Yep that's me just waving my marotte and saying random things. Like cult. I am never sure what I mean half the time.

Anyway. How to spot a toxic school.

How to Spot a Toxic Martial Arts Club Environment