Leung Jan's system(s)?

[wckf92]

I've always kind of had the impression that the HK WC was kind of the stripped down version.
Like you said, I believe YM did what he did because of the situation/ culture he found himself in at that time.
I also think he may have been carrying Leung Jan's torch of trying to simplify his method. HK simply became the catalyst for change.

Yeah dude...I mean...how else to explain all the changes/differences.
1. turn on forward part of foot vs rear part of foot.
2. the way the opening of the forms happens
3. weight distributions
4. stepping vs sliding
5. the coreography of things like the jong, the pole, the knives, etc.

It boggles the mind!!!

 

[geezer]

I've always kind of had the impression that the HK WC was kind of the stripped down version.
Like you said, I believe YM did what he did because of the situation/ culture he found himself in at that time.
I also think he may have been carrying Leung Jan's torch of trying to simplify his method. HK simply became the catalyst for change.

IMO "Stripping down" or streamlining the system would have contributed to its functionality as well as its commercial success. In the 50's in Hong Kong those young guys came to Yip Man looking for something that worked. Like the young guys today that go to MMA gyms.

 

[Poppity]

especially in HK where after 1 or 2 years the other TCMA students would still be on footwork whilst Ip Man's students would be on Chum Kil. I still strongly believe that in part at least, Ip Man's and wing chun's reputation in HK in the 50s/60s came about from this fact and the various beimos going on.

 

[wckf92]

Maybe, in today's modern "MMA culture"...we need a stripped down version of Wing Chun!!!

 

[Poppity]

...maybe, but as Ip Man's wing chun is already stripped back, you would have to find someone prepared to teach an older and more complete version and then re-examine what could be stripped out and leave a still functioning system... which leaves the issue of how many bricks do you take out before the wall falls down.

 

[APL76]

Some people think they live in the early 1800's in China.

I think it's stupid and if a teacher would be so secretive it would be the last one I would be learning from.

I like transparency....

I'm still puzzled by this transparency in martial arts that many people seem to think it needs. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful of you or anyone else, it just puzzles me. Why is it any different to any other thing people do? Should the Colonel just give up the 11 secret herbs and spices just because its the 21st century? (And just quietly, I'm convinced Colonel Sanders was really Leon Trotsky. Do a google images search comparing them and tell me I'm wrong). Or should Boeing and Lockheed Martin simply share their research? How is it any different from a musician expecting people to buy their CDs (or maybe mp3? now) rather than illegally download their music, or Warner Brothers expecting people to go buy a movie ticket rather than illegally download their movie? Why is it, in the age of copyright and intellectual property protection, keeping what's yours is fine, EXCEPT in the context of a martial art, which people think aught to be a free for all?

Perhaps if someone can explain a few things like.

What do you expect to gain from having this information open and freely available? Do you just expect to get a bit of knowledge?, or are you looking for ways to modify, perhaps even improve, your own kung fu?

Do you think that different systems of wing chun, or even different systems of kung fu/martial arts can be fused together? and if so do you think you will end up with a better system of martial art in the end?

Do you feel like your wing chun is somehow …….incomplete?...………. or maybe shallow? and so hearing about what other systems of wing chun/martial arts do might fil in some gaps or add refinement or something?

Just some questions, again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything, nor do I have a problem with the idea that martial arts can or should be shared openly (in HK style I'm happy to do that), though I just don't really understand it. And while I'm quoting Malos1979, this is directed generally, not meaning to seem to be having a shot at you Malos1979.

 

[KPM]

Should the Colonel just give up the 11 secret herbs and spices just because its the 21st century? (And just quietly, I'm convinced Colonel Sanders was really Leon Trotsky. Do a google images search comparing them and tell me I'm wrong). Or should Boeing and Lockheed Martin simply share their research? How is it any different from a musician expecting people to buy their CDs (or maybe mp3? now) rather than illegally download their music, or Warner Brothers expecting people to go buy a movie ticket rather than illegally download their movie? Why is it, in the age of copyright and intellectual property protection, keeping what's yours is fine, EXCEPT in the context of a martial art, which people think aught to be a free for all?

---Good points. Except no one here is expecting you to teach your system to them for free. Being willing to share a simple point like which part of the foot you are pivoting on is akin to someone sharing the fryer temp they cook the chicken at, not the secret herb recipe. Or the type of aluminum used in their aircraft construction, not the blueprints to their latest project.


What do you expect to gain from having this information open and freely available? Do you just expect to get a bit of knowledge?, or are you looking for ways to modify, perhaps even improve, your own kung fu?

---I already answered that question. We are here to discuss Wing Chun. I assume that most of the people here are like me....they are passionate about Wing Chun and about learning about other people's insights and ways they do their Wing Chun....even if they don't intend to alter or change their own Wing Chun. No one here is trying to learn how to do Wing Chun from a discussion forum! We are just here to share and to learn how other people do things. Why are you here, if not to also discuss and learn how others do things and how others approach their Wing Chun? Why would you assume that everyone is trying to "steal" something from you? Why would you assume that everyone here has inferior Wing Chun and is trying to improve it with your secrets? Again, no one is "demanding" that you share or feeling entitled to what you have to share. I simply pointed out that the attitude you have displayed is an anachronism in the 21st century. The oath your teacher required of you is an anachronism in the 21st century. Why is your Guangzhu Wing Chun any more special than your Hong Kong Wing Chun? Sum Nun had lots of students in China and there are still a good number of people teaching his Wing Chun in Guangzhu. But you can share tidbits about one and not the other? Again, I understand why. You don't have to go into that again. I just think the "why" is kind of ridiculous.

 

[APL76]

Calm down, have a deep breath and relax. I'm not accusing you or anyone here of wanting to steal stuff, nor am I asserting that everyone has inferior wing chun, so take it easy. What I made plain in other comments is that there are, and in increasing numbers, of people who are indeed doing just that, most of who don't even have the basics right.

I'm not expecting you or anyone who is not within Yuen Kay San's line to know who is who (I myself only have a vague notion of really who is who, but I can look at their wing chun and immediately know who is telling the truth or not) or really just what is happening, but its going on. My sifu even gets grilled about what he, and or, his students are teaching every time he goes back to China and so much as anywhere near a Guangzhou wing chun association meeting (which he generally avoids because of the politics involved). So for us its actually pretty important to keep stuff to ourselves even just as a way to avoid getting tangled up in that sort of crap. And people within our lineage are back biting and undermining each other constantly. We want to stay away from all of that. One thing I will share with you was one of the first lessons Sum Nung taught my sifu, that was: to stay well away from wing chun politics. And so you know, yes Sum Nung did teach probably in the thousands of people, but he only had a very, very small number of disciples, and what he taught his disciples is an extremely different kettle of fish to what everyone else got, even 2nd or 3rd generation students if they themselves hadn't got it just as he taught his disciples; and that's one big reason for us not just dishing out whatever information people might want to have. Its not that we think anyone here will "steal" out stuff, its that people who were never entrusted with this stuff in the first place (you would have to ask Sum Nung why not) get what they were not given. Also, just so you know, my sifu is just as beholden to his oath to Sum Nung as we are to him, he is just staying true to his word too. As indeed was Sum Nung to Yuen Kay San.

Don't look at just anything and think its a good representation of Guangzhou wing chun, the overwhelming majority of it has………….blemishes? You can make up your mind which is good and which is bad. I'm making no comment.

Why is our Guangzhou style more special than our Hong Kong style? Firstly, because we know both and can feel the difference, and experience the difference and outcome when we do it, and even then its only because we are willing to do the training to support the Guangzhou style. If we weren't willing to do that, and when you are learning it, doing the Guangzhou style feels impossible, I'd say anyone could be forgiven for thinking that the Guangzhou style is unworkable; some of my instructors came to that conclusion and gave up. For people like that, HK style is by far the superior style. And far from being happy to share "tidbits" of our HK style I'm happy to discuss that in depth and detail as much as anyone would like. Secondly, its a condition of us learning it that we don't share it. As it was for my sifu, as it was for Sum Nung.

 

[yak sao]

... And people within our lineage are back biting and undermining each other constantly. We want to stay away from all of that. One thing I will share with you was one of the first lessons Sum Nung taught my sifu, that was: to stay well away from wing chun politics.

And here I thought all of the bad politics came from the HK WC.
It's nice to know that WC is one big happy dysfunctional family all across the board.

 

[APL76]

And here I thought all of the bad politics came from the HK WC.
It's nice to know that WC is one big happy dysfunctional family all across the board.

nah, and I'm sure other branches have the same thing, too. It seems to have intesified since Sum Nung died though; probably intensified once Yip Man died in the Yip Man system.

 

[Poppity]

I think that APL76 comment is spot on regarding looking at the wing chun demonstrated by form or application being a big reveal about who was taught a more traditional version and who has been taught a more modern approach.... just to caveat, I am not saying the modern approach (Ip Man from the 60s etc.) is not applicable or useful, only that there is a difference.

I also think the lineage politics is massively problematic to wing chun's development, the Lee Shing lineage in the UK has had issues for years, and this all adds to the general distrust and feelings that things cannot be shared. If there are problems internally, imagine the problems externally etc... so that old saying of all it takes is for a couple of bad apples to spoil the barrel springs to mind.

I can understand the secret side of teaching... in that knowledge held by a minority is considered of a greater value than knowledge which is widely disseminated (the latter generally being free and for everyone) but it feels, to me, a bit like security clearance, no-one gets top level access on their first day, just cause they applied for the job.... and if they start talking to the Russians or open up their own unofficial security branch, their clearance will get revoked.... I understand the response might be "we are not talking about security its a martial art in the service industry"....

and here... I do generally feel that there is a clash of cultures... the western approach of consumer and expectation of good service, where I have paid my money I expect to be taught what I have paid for, and the Chinese approach which is almost the reverse, of the consumer/student must show good character and "brand" loyalty over a prolonged period before they get the under-counter stuff.

However, I think the which part of the foot do you pivot on might have blown out of proportion, but I think that this might be because you were cautious about providing a holistic answer.

 

[KPM]

Calm down, have a deep breath and relax. I'm not accusing you or anyone here of wanting to steal stuff, nor am I asserting that everyone has inferior wing chun, so take it easy. What I made plain in other comments is that there are, and in increasing numbers, of people who are indeed doing just that, most of who don't even have the basics right.

---No one needs to "calm down", just like no one was "demanding" anything of you or feeling "entitled." You certainly have a way of trying to "blow things out of proportion"! ;-) And by the analogies you used and the questions you asked, you certainly implied that you felt people were trying to steal your secrets or improve their own Wing Chun with your knowledge. Why else would you use those analogies or ask those specific questions?


So for us its actually pretty important to keep stuff to ourselves even just as a way to avoid getting tangled up in that sort of crap. And people within our lineage are back biting and undermining each other constantly.

---You said it, not me. Its a bunch of crap. And you don't think that whole attitude is an anachronism in the 21st century?


One thing I will share with you was one of the first lessons Sum Nung taught my sifu, that was: to stay well away from wing chun politics.

---And you don't think this entire part of the conversation here hasn't been "playing politics"? You have just been trying to justify your political stance. I pointed out it was an anachronism in the 21st century and rather silly. You could have said...."Yeah I agree, but its something I'm stuck with!".....rather than going on and on about how justified you think it is.


And so you know, yes Sum Nung did teach probably in the thousands of people, but he only had a very, very small number of disciples, and what he taught his disciples is an extremely different kettle of fish to what everyone else got, even 2nd or 3rd generation students if they themselves hadn't got it just as he taught his disciples; and that's one big reason for us not just dishing out whatever information people might want to have.

---That's one good reason to be sharing with those people what they may have missed to bring up the quality and reputation of Sum Nun's Wing Chun as a whole! Again, that is a rather crappy attitude to have in the 21st century. Recall my story of Ted Lucaylucay traveling and doing seminars with the sole purpose of trying to increase the standard of FMA in the US. That is the kind of attitude to have! If they are your Guangzhu Wing Chun brothers, why are you not willing to help them out and help them to improve their Wing Chun?


Its not that we think anyone here will "steal" out stuff, its that people who were never entrusted with this stuff in the first place (you would have to ask Sum Nung why not) get what they were not given. Also, just so you know, my sifu is just as beholden to his oath to Sum Nung as we are to him, he is just staying true to his word too. As indeed was Sum Nung to Yuen Kay San.

---That's nice. You guys are displaying good integrity. But you are saying Sum Nun taught many people crap?, and no one is willing to help them sort out what is good and improve their knowledge? Not so much integrity there! ;-)


Don't look at just anything and think its a good representation of Guangzhou wing chun, the overwhelming majority of it has………….blemishes? You can make up your mind which is good and which is bad. I'm making no comment.

---And again....why isn't anyone willing to help them became a better representation of Guangzhou Wing Chun and correct their errors or "blemishes"? Why keep it a secret from them? That attitude is an anachronism in the 21st century and doesn't display very good integrity IMHO! Why not strive to raise the standard of Guangzhu Wing Chun as a whole and build its reputation? Why hide it away?

 

[KPM]

nah, and I'm sure other branches have the same thing, too. It seems to have intesified since Sum Nung died though; probably intensified once Yip Man died in the Yip Man system.

Intensified because all of the oaths and promises and unwillingness to share or help others? Unwillingness to work together to raise everyone's standard? And you think that attitude is not an anachronism in the 21st century and somewhat ridiculous????

 

[wckf92]

Dang...almost regretting starting this thread hahaha.

Methinks this issue will be alive and well for many years to come...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm still puzzled by this transparency in martial arts that many people seem to think it needs. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful of you or anyone else, it just puzzles me. Why is it any different to any other thing people do? Should the Colonel just give up the 11 secret herbs and spices just because its the 21st century? (And just quietly, I'm convinced Colonel Sanders was really Leon Trotsky. Do a google images search comparing them and tell me I'm wrong). Or should Boeing and Lockheed Martin simply share their research? How is it any different from a musician expecting people to buy their CDs (or maybe mp3? now) rather than illegally download their music, or Warner Brothers expecting people to go buy a movie ticket rather than illegally download their movie? Why is it, in the age of copyright and intellectual property protection, keeping what's yours is fine, EXCEPT in the context of a martial art, which people think aught to be a free for all?

Perhaps if someone can explain a few things like.

What do you expect to gain from having this information open and freely available? Do you just expect to get a bit of knowledge?, or are you looking for ways to modify, perhaps even improve, your own kung fu?

Do you think that different systems of wing chun, or even different systems of kung fu/martial arts can be fused together? and if so do you think you will end up with a better system of martial art in the end?

Do you feel like your wing chun is somehow …….incomplete?...………. or maybe shallow? and so hearing about what other systems of wing chun/martial arts do might fil in some gaps or add refinement or something?

Just some questions, again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything, nor do I have a problem with the idea that martial arts can or should be shared openly (in HK style I'm happy to do that), though I just don't really understand it. And while I'm quoting Malos1979, this is directed generally, not meaning to seem to be having a shot at you Malos1979.

I see room for improvement and expansion in every art. As others innovate, any given art can be "left behind" by not adapting to changes in culture, environment, and common practice. Even worse, they can continue to rely on mistaken information (imagine if sports teams still thought it improved players if they didn't drink during practice). Sharing of information between groups makes this growth and development easier for all. My primary art traditionally has a weak ground game. It existed, so NGA was a step ahead of some arts in that area, but adding a few tweaks from Judo and BJJ (easy to do since the arts share principles) turns it into something useful. It's still not going to match BJJ or what used to be common in Judo, but it's better suited to the art's focus. And if others (from other arts) know what I'm doing, they can give feedback on what they see in it (good or bad) that can help feed my development.

To finish answering your question, though, I have to take the other side - the question you sort of asked: what's the risk in sharing that. For a high-profit marketing system, there's some risk. Here, I'm thinking of those systems that sell hard that they have that "special sauce" that nobody else has. Most of us don't do that, so there's no significant risk in sharing that information. There's quite literally nothing in what I teach that would begin to be analogous to the Colonel's blend of herbs and spices. You can already find every bit and piece somewhere else, though some of it has evolved or been refined differently. If there's something that nobody else (outside a specific art) has ever separately discovered and made part of a useful training system, it has to be either an extreme statistical anomaly (by now, with all the experimentation in fighting methods, it should have been discovered) or nobody else decided it was all that useful. Given that the latter is inherently more likely (statistical anomalies of that order being, by definition, extremely rare), I'd want to figure out why they didn't, and the best way to do that is to work with folks who are not invested in its value - people outside the art in question. It could be an anomaly. It could be something simple that makes it less useful in other systems than in mine (perhaps it only really works well when surrounded by other, specific principles and techniques), or it might be that I've missed something that would improve what I do and teach.

Long ago, it made sense to guard information about fighting styles. They were actually used for routine skirmishes between groups, and those skirmishes were rare enough that the other group wouldn't have a chance to figure out your special sauce. So if they could find out (by having someone spy out the information) what that special sauce was, they could train to defeat it and would have an advantage over your group. That doesn't really apply in any modern context I can perceive, except gang wars.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Intensified because all of the oaths and promises and unwillingness to share or help others? Unwillingness to work together to raise everyone's standard? And you think that attitude is not an anachronism in the 21st century and somewhat ridiculous????

Keith, I don't know if you mean to be or not, but you sound like you're in "attack mode" in these responses. I don't see a good reason for the secrecy (though I commend folks for holding to oaths they made in good faith), but calm discussion is likely to go farther than the tone I read in these posts. And note the way I phrased the end of that previous sentence - it may be something I'm reading that's not there, but that's something that happens in text-only discussions.

 

[Poppity]

I see room for improvement and expansion in every art. As others innovate, any given art can be "left behind" by not adapting to changes in culture, environment, and common practice. Even worse, they can continue to rely on mistaken information (imagine if sports teams still thought it improved players if they didn't drink during practice). Sharing of information between groups makes this growth and development easier for all. My primary art traditionally has a weak ground game. It existed, so NGA was a step ahead of some arts in that area, but adding a few tweaks from Judo and BJJ (easy to do since the arts share principles) turns it into something useful. It's still not going to match BJJ or what used to be common in Judo, but it's better suited to the art's focus. And if others (from other arts) know what I'm doing, they can give feedback on what they see in it (good or bad) that can help feed my development.

To finish answering your question, though, I have to take the other side - the question you sort of asked: what's the risk in sharing that. For a high-profit marketing system, there's some risk. Here, I'm thinking of those systems that sell hard that they have that "special sauce" that nobody else has. Most of us don't do that, so there's no significant risk in sharing that information. There's quite literally nothing in what I teach that would begin to be analogous to the Colonel's blend of herbs and spices. You can already find every bit and piece somewhere else, though some of it has evolved or been refined differently. If there's something that nobody else (outside a specific art) has ever separately discovered and made part of a useful training system, it has to be either an extreme statistical anomaly (by now, with all the experimentation in fighting methods, it should have been discovered) or nobody else decided it was all that useful. Given that the latter is inherently more likely (statistical anomalies of that order being, by definition, extremely rare), I'd want to figure out why they didn't, and the best way to do that is to work with folks who are not invested in its value - people outside the art in question. It could be an anomaly. It could be something simple that makes it less useful in other systems than in mine (perhaps it only really works well when surrounded by other, specific principles and techniques), or it might be that I've missed something that would improve what I do and teach.

Long ago, it made sense to guard information about fighting styles. They were actually used for routine skirmishes between groups, and those skirmishes were rare enough that the other group wouldn't have a chance to figure out your special sauce. So if they could find out (by having someone spy out the information) what that special sauce was, they could train to defeat it and would have an advantage over your group. That doesn't really apply in any modern context I can perceive, except gang wars.

These are excellent points in my opinion, but the threads like these only reinforce the perceived value of the closely held knowledge of wing chun. In the sense that if a school says they have secret teachings or esoteric knowledge... so what, does it really matter anyway?

It does not detract from the effectiveness of your own style and fighting ability, and none of the secrets are going to enable anyone to leap several feet in the air or punch someone through three walls, and yet whenever a school says we have knowledge we don't share, people consider it highly valuable and want to know it.

Wing Chun is just a fighting system which has some secretive layers, and in a saturated market of martial arts, (from a western point of view) it is a niche selling point.

How effective are those closely held items of knowledge? until a fighter with that knowledge and ability comes forward to compete in an open arena its a moot point. The argument that the techniques are too deadly has never held any water, if you have an expansive knowledge you should be able to apply it in a non-lethal way. It is much more likely that if such a person lost in the tournament, the loss of face to the school and lineage would be too great for anyone to ever be authorised to do it in the first place. Which comes back to the double edged sword of lineage, brand identity (or corporate identity) and an individuals wider responsibilities and obligations to the lineage itself.

Meanwhile.... the general unarmed martial arena continues to develop and progress by sharing, discussing and adapting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

These are excellent points in my opinion, but the threads like these only reinforce the perceived value of the closely held knowledge of wing chun. In the sense that if a school says they have secret teachings or esoteric knowledge... so what, does it really matter anyway?

It does not detract from the effectiveness of your own style and fighting ability, and none of the secrets are going to enable anyone to leap several feet in the air or punch someone through three walls, and yet whenever a school says we have knowledge we don't share, people consider it highly valuable and want to know it.

Wing Chun is just a fighting system which has some secretive layers, and in a saturated market of martial arts, (from a western point of view) it is a niche selling point.

How effective are those closely held items of knowledge? until a fighter with that knowledge and ability comes forward to compete in an open arena its a moot point. The argument that the techniques are too deadly has never held any water, if you have an expansive knowledge you should be able to apply it in a non-lethal way. It is much more likely that if such a person lost in the tournament, the loss of face to the school and lineage would be too great for anyone to ever be authorised to do it in the first place. Which comes back to the double edged sword of lineage, brand identity (or corporate identity) and an individuals wider responsibilities and obligations to the lineage itself.

Meanwhile.... the general unarmed martial arena continues to develop and progress by sharing, discussing and adapting.

I don't think most folks value the information more because it's not shared. It's that we tend to value it as much as other information (and I'm an information fiend), and really don't like not being able to collect it. To me, it's like a closed door in a museum (or the Biltmore House, which is about 20 minutes from home). I don't expect there's anything behind it that's much different from what's in the room with the open door, but I want to know, because STUFF!

And I think more discussion comes up because folks are either curious about the reason for the secrecy, or become frustrated by an attitude they don't understand or agree with.

WC information probably has little impact on me - it's too far from my experience to draw much from at this point. For others in the WC community, it's of higher value. Let me give an example of something I thought early on in this discussion, based on some of APL's comments and knowing what I've read of Keith's personal approach to WC. I couldn't help thinking that perhaps the secretive styles of WC have some information that would help improve other styles of WC, and perhaps some of the more progressive approaches to WC could help shorten the long, difficult learning curve APL mentioned for Guanzhou style. Maybe neither of those "perhaps" statements is true, but we can't really know without open sharing between the two.

 

[wckf92]

And, something else to keep in mind is that copious amounts of time and money are involved too...aside from loyalty, oaths, egos, etc.

 

[Poppity]

Pro’s of secrets

Instantly creates a level of exclusivity associated with the school
Elevates outside perception of knowledge/potential ability of the school
Creates a greater brand identity which encourages brand loyalty
Students are beholden to the school rules in order to obtain secrets, leading to the school having greater control over students behaviour (for ensuring good character)
People will train at the school for longer and pay more


Con’s of secrets

Limits potential development of other styles
Students are beholden to the school rules in order to obtain secrets, leading to the school having greater control over students behaviour (for readjustments in thinking due to cognitive dissonance – a bit culty)
It’s a bit irritating


Secrets generally offer a lot of pros on a marketing level and internal brand identity and the only con is if people don’t buy into your marketing or brand they think its stupid.

Whether the secrets are any good… well that’s a different story.

But everyone knows that just knowing secrets is not going to make you a great fighter.

Drills and forms are playing pop songs but fighting is pure jazz. So maybe some school knows some counterpointing so what, its not going to affect your jazz.