Let's talk about Tan Sau

[KPM]

In the video I posted earlier Jerry Yeung talked about between the shoulders.

Tan is used to spread energy and deflect attacks coming in. To me, this really does seem to be not limited, but most effective against attack where your opponents striking elbow is between your shoulders. I think there's better techniques for attacks coming from outside your center of mass. You can use tan to stop a hook, but it's just that. There's no "spreading" a decent hook. But not everyone goes strictly by the "spread" definition.

Yes, I agree. From a anatomy/biomechanics standpoint a Tan is not a strong enough structure to try and use as a force on force block....like stopping a wide swinging punch or hook. As you point out, there is no "spreading" involved when used that way. I would use a Lan instead. Lan means "obstruct." So one of Lan's uses is as a block or obstruction. And Lan does not have to always be parallel to the ground as people do it in their Chum Kiu form.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can use tan to stop a hook, but it's just that. There's no "spreading" a decent hook. But not everyone goes strictly by the "spread" definition.

You can use right Tan Shou to block a hook from your left if you add in body rotation to your left. But this is just a hard block which is too conservative of thinking. IMO, instead of thinking about to block a punch, it's better to think about to extend your left Tan Shou between your opponent's head and his right arm.

If a hook comes from the west direction, a northwest Tan Shou should be able to deflect that hook without body rotation. You other hand should be able to punch on your opponent's face at the same time. In other words, your opponent punches you with a right hook. You counter with a left Tan Shou and right punch.

Tan Shou is just a block for defense. A block is just to lift up the curtain. Your body then walk under that curtain. When your opponent punch you, whether you are thinking about only defense, or you are thinking about counter attack that will make your Tan Shou to be functioned in different ways.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a Tan is not a strong enough structure to try and use as a force on force block....

If you combine left Tan and right Tan into one, it will be more than strong enough. If your other hand is not punching, why not use both Tan Shou? Even if you use both Tan Shou, you only block with your arms, your fist can still punch at that moment.

 

[Martial D]

If you combine left Tan and right Tan into one, it will be more than strong enough.

If elbow and wrist are aligned on center with the angle of the elbow obtuse rather than acute(more extended) it is very hard to collapse with any amount of striking force, even with a single tan.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If elbow and wrist are aligned on center with the angle of the elbow obtuse rather than acute(more extended) it is very hard to collapse with any amount of striking force, even with a single tan.

The striking force can come from your forward movement by using your body mass instead of using your arm strength.

If you use double Tan, your elbow doesn't have to be at your center. Your left Tan elbow can be in front of your left chest. Your right Tan elbow can be in front of your right chest. You can always extend your arm during the contact and move back afterward if needed.

The single Tan is to use a line to protect your center (which is weaker). The double Tan is to use a wedge to protect your center (which is stronger).

 

[Martial D]

The striking force can come from your forward movement by using your body mass instead of using your arm strength.

If you use double Tan, your elbow doesn't have to be at your center. Your left Tan elbow can be in front of your left chest. Your right Tan elbow can be in front of your right chest. You can always extend your arm during the contact and move back afterward if needed.

The single Tan is to use a line to protect your center (which is weaker). The double Tan is to use a wedge to protect your center (which is stronger).

A single tan sau aligned to center is stronger than two hands in similar positions off center. It's a matter of structure. If the elbow is out, it is very easy to collapse. Granted, it will cover more area if you use two hands, but if you are trying to cover it is better to have the elbows tucked into the body than extended, ala boxing.

Try it. bring your elbow to your center line and extend it so your arm is at a 60-80 degree angle at the elbow, with your wrist also aligned to center, palm up. No amount of force will collapse that, you will be uprooted at the feet before it collapses.

 

[wckf92]

I've kind of always thought of Tan as a wedge. Like a door wedge.
A wedge can wedge something open; or it could wedge something closed.
It could also be firmly emplaced with proper structure and when something runs into it (ie like a round attack) it would hold fast.
Just my pre-holiday .02

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If the elbow is out, it is very easy to collapse.

The SC cucumber vine, WC Bong Shou, and Taiji Ji, the elbow are all out. Never heard about any structure issue.

 

[Martial D]

The SC cucumber vine, WC Bong Shou, and Taiji Ji, the elbow are all out. Never heard about any structure issue.

Sure, but none of that has anything to do with the price of tea in China.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Tan sau is used to strike the opponents wrist and can be used against hook coming up to the jaw.

Watch at 8:25

 

[Danny T]

When looking at Tan Sao as a counter to when on the inside of a hook punch...can it work? Yes it can...depending upon the range and how tight the hook. Then again depending on range and how tight the hook is the answer is no...it can be a great way to get knocked out. So, the next question...is there another action or other actions that are better suited, more effective, and more efficient than tan sao? Yes there are, so I strongly suggest you work your tan san vs a good boxer, a nak muay, or even someone who is aggressively attempting to punch you in a live, heavy sparring situation when you don't know when or how the other person is going to throw punches. See how well tan works as well as how the immediate following actions work out.

 

[KPM]

Is the technique known by the shape, or the concept behind it? The concept behind Tan is "to spread." If you are using it as a block and not "spreading" anything, but the shape is still the typical palm up position, is it still a "Tan"???

Since we are not Cantonese speakers, labeling it a "Tan" seems somewhat abstract and doesn't really have much meaning for us. But a native speaker of a generation ago would think of this technique as literally "spreading hand." So would it occur to him to use a "spreading hand" as a block? Wouldn't it be more likely his brain would see the need for a block and do an "obstructing hand" instead?

 

[wckf92]

Is the technique known by the shape, or the concept behind it? The concept behind Tan is "to spread." If you are using it as a block and not "spreading" anything, but the shape is still the typical palm up position, is it still a "Tan"???

Since we are not Cantonese speakers, labeling it a "Tan" seems somewhat abstract and doesn't really have much meaning for us. But a native speaker of a generation ago would think of this technique as literally "spreading hand." So would it occur to him to use a "spreading hand" as a block? Wouldn't it be more likely his brain would see the need for a block and do an "obstructing hand" instead?

For me, it's more about the shape. But, interesting point about the native speaker.

 

[Danny T]

Tan Sao is a structure or particular position. How that structure is to be applied is conceptual. There are also different ways one can move into the tan structure as well.

 

[wckf92]

to me, I can have a Tan shape, or a Bong shape, or whatever...yet use them with a yielding energy...or an explosive / ballistic energy.

 

[Punchy]

Is the technique known by the shape, or the concept behind it? The concept behind Tan is "to spread." If you are using it as a block and not "spreading" anything, but the shape is still the typical palm up position, is it still a "Tan"???

Since we are not Cantonese speakers, labeling it a "Tan" seems somewhat abstract and doesn't really have much meaning for us. But a native speaker of a generation ago would think of this technique as literally "spreading hand." So would it occur to him to use a "spreading hand" as a block? Wouldn't it be more likely his brain would see the need for a block and do an "obstructing hand" instead?

I've been beating this drum for a couple of decades.
While I acknowledge and respect WC's heritage,
I continue to think we, as non Cantonese speakers, do ourselves a huge disservice by using and teaching terms we don't fully understand.
If we were a technique based art, then fine, slather on all the Cantonese terms you want.
But if we truly consider ourselves to be concept based, it makes more sense to use terms from our own language so that we better comprehend.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you use fist instead of palm, The WC Tan Shou can be a boxing uppercut.

 

[Danny T]

If you use fist instead of palm, The WC Tan Shou can be a boxing uppercut.

Some of the movement may be quite similar but the structure of the wrist and hand in an uppercut punch is different from the Tan Sao. If the structure is different would it still be Tan Sao?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some of the movement may be quite similar but the structure of the wrist and hand in an uppercut punch is different from the Tan Sao. If the structure is different would it still be Tan Sao?

The goal is important. The path can be modified. If you want the WC to have uppercut, that's where you should look.

For example

- MT flying knee can be jumping kick without the kick.
- TKD spin hook kick can be floor sweep but higher.
- Boxing uppercut can be WC Tan Shou by using fist.
- ...

Which is more important? To use Tan Shou as

- uppercut (an offense tool),
- spread (a defense tool)?

 

[Punchy]

The goal is important. The path can be modified. If you want the WC to have uppercut, that's where you should look.

For example

- MT flying knee can be jumping kick without the kick.
- TKD spin hook kick can be floor sweep but higher.
- Boxing uppercut can be WC Tan Shou by using fist.
- ...

Which is more important? To use Tan Shou as

- uppercut (an offense tool),
- spread (a defense tool)?

You always say that WC doesn't have an uppercut or hook punch, but it does. The uppercut, which we refer to as a lifting punch is found in Chum Kiu. The hook punch is in Biu Tze but also the mechanics of it can be found in both SNT and CK.