Duke Meade
White Belt
I have been teaching Dai Wa Do for 20 years here in the USA . This Jujutsu and its training methods is the fruition of Sato Kimbei's life time study of martial arts.
Lets talk about it.
Lets talk about it.
Lets talk about Dai Wa Do Jujutsu
- Thread starter Duke Meade
- Start date
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Trying not to step on Duke's toes here, but to fill in some details:
Daiwado Jujutsu (Big Peaceful Way Jujutsu, loosely translated, alternatively "the school [university] of the peaceful way of jujutsu") is the creation, as Duke said, of Sato Kinbei, based on the numerous arts he was taught over his life. Although best known in the Ninjutsu circles as a student of Takamatsu Toshitsugu (known as Takamatsu Sumisuke in Sato's lineages, which include Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, and Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu), Sato was also the student/successor of a number of other teachers, including Ueno Takashi (from whom he received his line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu), Suzuki Sensaku (from whom he received Yagyu Shingan Ryu), and Yamamoto Kakuyoshi (from whom he received a line of Daito Ryu Aikijutsu), and was a very well respected practitioner and teacher of Chinese methods, such as Xing'i, Bagua, and Taiji. He combined what he learnt as being the most important aspects from all these sources to create Daiwado as a single approach, drawing from each of the systems he learnt. As well as passing on his teachings in the form of Daiwado, Sato was also a teacher of Tanemura Shoto (Tsunehisa), Kancho (President) of the Genbukan, after Tanemura had left the Bujinkan (the story of the two men's meetings is an interesting one, with the idea of synchronicity playing a role). Individual Ryu-ha material is sometimes shown by members of Daiwado, instead of the more "homogenized" approach, such as Yagyu Shingan Ryu, as Elder mentioned above. From what I've seen, there isn't a large presence outside of Japan at this point. Sato passed away in January, 1999, at the age of 73.
Some of the most prominent arts (aside from Daiwado itself) taught are Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu (this line only retains it's unarmed, although there are aspects of weaponry taught as variations to the taijutsu patterns later in the training), Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heiho (an armoured form of grappling and striking, very different to many other Japanese systems, and instead showing a large Chinese influence), Daito Ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, and other weapon arts (including sword), as well as the Chinese systems.
That said, I feel this thread would be better suited to the Jujutsu forum, rather than the general one, or the Koryu or Ninjutsu forums, considering the arts taught (and the connection to Takamatsu and the Genbukan).
Daiwado Jujutsu (Big Peaceful Way Jujutsu, loosely translated, alternatively "the school [university] of the peaceful way of jujutsu") is the creation, as Duke said, of Sato Kinbei, based on the numerous arts he was taught over his life. Although best known in the Ninjutsu circles as a student of Takamatsu Toshitsugu (known as Takamatsu Sumisuke in Sato's lineages, which include Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, and Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu), Sato was also the student/successor of a number of other teachers, including Ueno Takashi (from whom he received his line of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu), Suzuki Sensaku (from whom he received Yagyu Shingan Ryu), and Yamamoto Kakuyoshi (from whom he received a line of Daito Ryu Aikijutsu), and was a very well respected practitioner and teacher of Chinese methods, such as Xing'i, Bagua, and Taiji. He combined what he learnt as being the most important aspects from all these sources to create Daiwado as a single approach, drawing from each of the systems he learnt. As well as passing on his teachings in the form of Daiwado, Sato was also a teacher of Tanemura Shoto (Tsunehisa), Kancho (President) of the Genbukan, after Tanemura had left the Bujinkan (the story of the two men's meetings is an interesting one, with the idea of synchronicity playing a role). Individual Ryu-ha material is sometimes shown by members of Daiwado, instead of the more "homogenized" approach, such as Yagyu Shingan Ryu, as Elder mentioned above. From what I've seen, there isn't a large presence outside of Japan at this point. Sato passed away in January, 1999, at the age of 73.
Some of the most prominent arts (aside from Daiwado itself) taught are Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu (this line only retains it's unarmed, although there are aspects of weaponry taught as variations to the taijutsu patterns later in the training), Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heiho (an armoured form of grappling and striking, very different to many other Japanese systems, and instead showing a large Chinese influence), Daito Ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, and other weapon arts (including sword), as well as the Chinese systems.
That said, I feel this thread would be better suited to the Jujutsu forum, rather than the general one, or the Koryu or Ninjutsu forums, considering the arts taught (and the connection to Takamatsu and the Genbukan).
Duke Meade
White Belt
A long time ago, Japan was called Great Harmony Country.大和の国 Yamato No Kuni. Instead of readin大和の道 Yamato no michi. It is read　大和道 Dai Wa Do.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Thanks, Duke. What can you tell us about Daiwado's methods, as opposed to, say, Asayama Ichiden Ryu's, or other systems?
Duke Meade
White Belt
Hi Chris, Good to talk with you. I am not very good at chatting on line, but I will try, please be patient with me, I am only white belt . Methods, like how you apply it?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yeah, how does the approach change from Asayama Ichiden to Daiwado, that kinda thing. For instance, Asayama has a preference of joint locks applied to the wrists (dominantly, not exclusively, of course), whereas other systems have a preference to throw, or have a larger focus on striking.
Thanks, Chris-I was hoping you'd chime in on this. Following all things "Sato Kinbei" is a bit beyond my,purview but I knew you'd have the straight story.
Duke Meade
White Belt
Sorry for the long pause, something came up. Dai Wa Do has elements of Asayama Ichiden Ryu. For example, Eta nage the 5th waza of Jodan no Kurai ni ju te of Asayama Ichiden Ryu . Dai Wa Do does not begin it's teaching with throws . It begins with joint reversals and restraint holds. The object in the beginning (Shoden) teachings of this Jujutsu is learning about joint reversal science. The Eta nage is taught in the throwing science division, and all of it is taught at same time depending. Begins with grab reversal then strike , pull to floor and pinned in various ways.
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Duke Meade
White Belt
Yes always. Please come and visit when you come in to the area.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Ha, no worries on the pause, we all live in different places (I'm in Melbourne, Australia), so a delay of a day or two for an answer isn't really anything.
I'm aware that Asayama Ichiden Ryu is present in Daiwado, obviously, but I'm not sure if you're saying that the kata from Asayama Ichiden are taught as part of Daiwado, with a different emphasis? I'm familiar with Eta Nage (I know it with a slightly different pronunciation, Ete Nage, though), are you saying that it is part of the Shoden of Daiwado? If so, that's very interesting... and reminds me of a more "structured" approach to the way things are done in the Bujinkan. If you take the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki (which includes a large variety of kata from a range of Ryu-ha Hatsumi holds), you can see a similar idea.... the kata are taught separated from the Ryu they are taken from, and are used to give a different emphasis or focus. It just goes to show that just learning the kata, without understanding how they fit into the greater Ryu-ha, isn't the same as learning a particular Ryu... but that doesn't mean they have lesser value.
When you say that the essential tactic includes "pull to the floor, and pin in various ways", are you talking about osae komi waza, or ne waza? I'm reading you as meaning osae, so you remain upright (for the most part), would that be correct?
Duke Meade
White Belt
Hello Chris san, thank you for the reply. Never been to Melbourne, but have been to Perth twice. So you are in the south which is north. Beautiful country you live in. I still remember the sky where I was such a beautiful blue.
No, the kata from Asayama ichiden Ryu are not a part of Dai Wa Do. But I believe we were subjected to it and other styles of Jujutsu he taught as a greater learning experience.
Yes, Osae Waza,When you pull to the floor the arm will be directly above uke's head, uke will be on the back, with his palm down press his elbow to the floor, or grab wrist and raise it of floor two inches and press elbow to the floor while holding up. If uke rolls onto stomach then press hold out to side palm down and compress elbow. Your floor stance will be Hira Ichi mon ji　平一文字、or Hira gamae 平構え. Of course as you know,this is Shoden training, an advanced practioner can do what ever he wants to.
Ete nage, 獲手投げ is not Shoden waza because it is a throw, but the Osae waza can be applied. Chuden concentrates on throws mostly.
This approach from learning bone locking first gives a student time to condition and prepare gradually for the next stage.
Respestfully,
Duke
No, the kata from Asayama ichiden Ryu are not a part of Dai Wa Do. But I believe we were subjected to it and other styles of Jujutsu he taught as a greater learning experience.
Yes, Osae Waza,When you pull to the floor the arm will be directly above uke's head, uke will be on the back, with his palm down press his elbow to the floor, or grab wrist and raise it of floor two inches and press elbow to the floor while holding up. If uke rolls onto stomach then press hold out to side palm down and compress elbow. Your floor stance will be Hira Ichi mon ji　平一文字、or Hira gamae 平構え. Of course as you know,this is Shoden training, an advanced practioner can do what ever he wants to.
Ete nage, 獲手投げ is not Shoden waza because it is a throw, but the Osae waza can be applied. Chuden concentrates on throws mostly.
This approach from learning bone locking first gives a student time to condition and prepare gradually for the next stage.
Respestfully,
Duke
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Thanks, Duke. Yeah, it's a pretty little place here. Perth's a bit warmer than Melbourne (well, most of the time... our weather is notoriously erratic...), glad you enjoyed your time there!
So the structure of Daiwado is very much building on the previous section, yeah? How does the structure compare to other systems you're familiar with? We can continue to use Asayama Ichiden Ryu, if you like, or Yagyu Shingan, or Daito Ryu (I'm familiar with the structure of each, but most familiar with Asayama Ichiden Ryu). Oh, and for the record, the kanji I have for Eta/Ete Nage is 猿手投, with 手 being able to be pronounced "te" or "ta" (when joined with another term). Interesting with the differences there as well.
So the structure of Daiwado is very much building on the previous section, yeah? How does the structure compare to other systems you're familiar with? We can continue to use Asayama Ichiden Ryu, if you like, or Yagyu Shingan, or Daito Ryu (I'm familiar with the structure of each, but most familiar with Asayama Ichiden Ryu). Oh, and for the record, the kanji I have for Eta/Ete Nage is 猿手投, with 手 being able to be pronounced "te" or "ta" (when joined with another term). Interesting with the differences there as well.
Duke Meade
White Belt
You are correct on the Kanji. I made a mistake, that is why I like to write out the Kanji for the term when discussing them. Yes, kind of does some building previous section.
Chenpanling's 99 form Taichi. Is divided into three parts, or sets. The first set is the shortest and its moves are simple. When one completes this section, they will feel a sense of accomplishment as well as stronger legs,and other skills that they will need for the second part. The second part has a series of kicks not in the beginning but about one third of the way in. It would be awful hard to do these kicks right up front in the first section. The third and final set has more complicated moves. Then of course the push hands feet not moving only waist and arms, then connect to feet moving.
Yagyu Shin Gan Ryu, has no such progression.There are 21 patterns, with the 7 attacks being all the same. No really building upon the first set, to help the next step so much etc..
Respectfull,
Duke
Chenpanling's 99 form Taichi. Is divided into three parts, or sets. The first set is the shortest and its moves are simple. When one completes this section, they will feel a sense of accomplishment as well as stronger legs,and other skills that they will need for the second part. The second part has a series of kicks not in the beginning but about one third of the way in. It would be awful hard to do these kicks right up front in the first section. The third and final set has more complicated moves. Then of course the push hands feet not moving only waist and arms, then connect to feet moving.
Yagyu Shin Gan Ryu, has no such progression.There are 21 patterns, with the 7 attacks being all the same. No really building upon the first set, to help the next step so much etc..
Respectfull,
Duke
oaktree
Master of Arts
Hi Duke on the subject on Chinese martial arts. The baguazhang in your YouTube video
Looks a little different then the Liang that I have seen as far as a slower more external look
Then those demonstrated by the Liang line did Sato Kinbei change the structure or modify it?
The xingyiquan does it come by Wang Shu Jin to Sato?
Wang's version is a bit different then traditional sets as he was a big guy.
I am guessing the Chen Pan form comes by Wang as they
Were friends. I think in Taiwan students of Wang still practice that set.
I am curious to know what from Li Zi Ming and Wang came to Sato
I am guessing the 8 mother palm set, stake set, 64 straight set,Li Zi Ming drill set. Wang's swimming dragon bagua and link ing palms.
Very interesting to hear and see the japanese versions of Chinese internal arts from what I have seen
There is a distinct look to it compared to others who do only Chinese internal arts. I look forward to your
Insightful information and a real privilege to discuss Chinese martial arts with you.
Looks a little different then the Liang that I have seen as far as a slower more external look
Then those demonstrated by the Liang line did Sato Kinbei change the structure or modify it?
The xingyiquan does it come by Wang Shu Jin to Sato?
Wang's version is a bit different then traditional sets as he was a big guy.
I am guessing the Chen Pan form comes by Wang as they
Were friends. I think in Taiwan students of Wang still practice that set.
I am curious to know what from Li Zi Ming and Wang came to Sato
I am guessing the 8 mother palm set, stake set, 64 straight set,Li Zi Ming drill set. Wang's swimming dragon bagua and link ing palms.
Very interesting to hear and see the japanese versions of Chinese internal arts from what I have seen
There is a distinct look to it compared to others who do only Chinese internal arts. I look forward to your
Insightful information and a real privilege to discuss Chinese martial arts with you.
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Duke Meade
White Belt
Hello 曹操, Does your name mean honored friend? I studied a little Chinese many years ago. My text book was written in Japanese, so we had to be able to read Japanese in order to take the course. It was very confusing going back and forth.So my Chinese is pretty frightening. Your proverb at the end of your page says, If you listen to your heart then you are truly following Heavens way, reminds me of what my sensei use to say, he said,''Michi ga shireba, michi ga ari, To knowthe path is the path!"
Now about the You Tube Video, these videos are not really good samples, they were roughly filmed and posted as a meager sample, so do not try to read to much into them . 　Those form are of 程挺華伝　竜形八卦掌. There are three speeds, slow, med, and fast. So with the fast they take on a whole different look. Those have not posted , yet.
Sato sensei did not modify Bagua forms but did the Chen pan Lings Taichi forms. I think he made Chen Pan Lings Taichi better.
.王樹金先生 learned his 形意拳　from　張占魁先生 and he passed them on to Sato sensei. I learned 五行拳for about 15 to 20 minutes at the end of each Taichi class. I did not ask to learn it, he made me learn it because he wanted me to teach in the keep it alive .
Respectfully,
Duke
Now about the You Tube Video, these videos are not really good samples, they were roughly filmed and posted as a meager sample, so do not try to read to much into them . 　Those form are of 程挺華伝　竜形八卦掌. There are three speeds, slow, med, and fast. So with the fast they take on a whole different look. Those have not posted , yet.
Sato sensei did not modify Bagua forms but did the Chen pan Lings Taichi forms. I think he made Chen Pan Lings Taichi better.
.王樹金先生 learned his 形意拳　from　張占魁先生 and he passed them on to Sato sensei. I learned 五行拳for about 15 to 20 minutes at the end of each Taichi class. I did not ask to learn it, he made me learn it because he wanted me to teach in the keep it alive .
Respectfully,
Duke
