Let's debate lightness

[Zeny]

This forum seems a pretty sad place due to lack of activity. Let's liven it up a little.

I belong to the camp which believes that it is absolutely essential to empty the whole body completely of ANY force. It took a lot of thought, experimentation and time for me to be able to accept the simple fact (that my teacher has always been saying) that i ought to use lightness and no force to push someone. When i finally 'got it', it is pretty hard to go back to the way it was.

Anyone wish to have a friendly debate with me and say that i am wrong?

 

[mograph]

Nope.

But to those who do want to debate, it would be a good idea to first define terms such as empty the body, lightness, force, no force.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nope.

first define terms such as empty the body, lightness, force, no force.

What mograph said

 

[Zeny]

Force is pretty difficult to define, for there are many ways to generate force.

No force is pretty easy to define. It means lightness (using only one or two ounces). The recipient of a no force push would not feel any pain, only a light touch like that coming from a mere toddler.

Empty the body means completely rid the body of any movement or tendency to create more than one or two ounces of force.

 

[oaktree]

Here is how I see it like holding a rope you don't want to be so loose that it falls out of your hand,
You don't want to be so stiff that there is no slack if need to be, you want to be Peng.
Same as a guitar to loose makes no sound, to tight it breaks you tune it to have the correct stretch to produce the correct pitch.
I am thinking of no force as no tension or muscle force vs a relaxed force. My toddler actually pushes pretty hard

 

[Zeny]

When i say no force it literally means no force. In your guitar example, no force would mean the loose string that produces no sound. It is precisely the fact that it makes no sound which makes it scary.

No force is not relaxed force. It literally means no force.

 

[oaktree]

So there is no peng, just a limp wet noodle of an arm?

 

[Zeny]

Your post made me laugh, thanks. Yeah, that's it. Not only the arm, but the whole body. I'm waiting for someone to come along and say that i am wrong so as to spark a debate. C'mon, say it.

 

[EddieCyrax]

if the whole body is limp, with no force, how does one "push" someone even with an ounce of force?.....Can you define "Push"?

It takes muscle contraction to raise your arms and keep them extended...thus not limp....

Confused?!?

 

[mograph]

When i say no force it literally means no force.

Definition of TAUTOLOGY

When one attempts to define a term, it's good practice to use different words to avoid a tautology.

(This is one reason why the internal martial arts have a bad reputation in some quarters: tautological definitions.)

 

[oaktree]

Are we talking limp in form, in push hands, applications? I can agree with a relax, peng type of feeling however a limp, collapsed structure I don't think so. I have felt my teacher uses a light touch to stick and listen as a way to over extend me. If I recall in stepping a step should not be so empty that it breaks structure and being limp would definitely do so. But it really depends on example you give on this empty force.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i ought to use lightness and no force to push someone.

May I ask why do you use the word "push"? How about "punch" or "kick"? Could you describe how you will "punch" someone's face by using "lightness and no force"?

No force is not relaxed force. It literally means no force.

If someone hire you to use a slate hammer to knock down a 2 store concrete building, will you be able to complete that task by using "no force"?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Your post made me laugh, thanks. Yeah, that's it. Not only the arm, but the whole body. I'm waiting for someone to come along and say that i am wrong so as to spark a debate. C'mon, say it.

Actually, by all things taijiquan and Internal martial arts...limp/wet noodle is wrong...sorry. If you are limp that means no energy and you are a ragdoll laying on the ground., like this

Is that what you are trying to say?

You might want to familiarize yourself with these

The Ten Essentials of Taijiquan
Narrated by Yang Cheng Fu
Recorded by Chen Wei Ming
From the book "Yang Style Taijiquan" by Yang Zhen Duo

1. Straightening The Head

Stand straight and hold the head and neck naturally erect, with the mind concentrated on the top. Do not strain or be tense; otherwise, the blood and vital energy cannot circulate smoothly.

2. Correct Position Of Chest And Back

Keep the chest slightly inward, which will enable you to sink your breath to the dan tian (lower belly). Do not protrude your chest, otherwise you will feel uneasy in breathing and somewhat "top heavy".

Great force can be launched onlly when you keep the vital energy in your lower belly.

3. Relaxation Of Waist

For the human body, the waist is the dominant part. When you relax the waist, your two feet will be strong enough to form a firm base. All the movements depend on the action of the waist, as the saying goes: "Vital force comes from the waist". Inaccurate movements in taijiquan stem from erroneous actions of the waist.

4. Solid And Empty Stance

It is of primary importance in taijiquan to distinguish between "Xu" (Empty) and "Shi" (Solid). If you shift the weight of the body on to the right leg, then the right leg is solidly planted on the ground and the left leg is in an empty stance. When your weight is on the left leg, then the left leg is firmly planted on the ground and the right leg is in an empty stance. Only in this way can you turn and move your body adroitly and without effort, otherwise you will be slow and clumsy in your movements and not able to remain stable and firm on your feet.

5. Sinking Of Shoulders And Elbows

Keep your shoulder in a natural, relaxed position. If you lift your shoulders, the qi will rise with them and the whole body will be without strength. You should also keep the elbows down, otherwise you will not be able to keep your shoulders relaxed and move your body with ease.

6. Using The Mind Instead Of Force

Among the people who practise taijiquan, it is quite common to hear this comment: "That is entirely using the mind, not force". In practising taijiquan, the whole body is relaxed, and there is not an iota of stiff or clumsy strength in the veins or joints to hinder the movement of the body. People may ask: How can one increase his strength without exercising force? According to taditional Chinese medicine, there is in the human body a system of pathways called jingluo (or meridian) which link the viscera with different parts of the body, making the human body an integrated whole. If the jingluo is not impeded, then the vital energy will circulate in the body unobstructed. But if the jingluo is filled with stiff strength, the vital energy will not be able to circulate and consequently the body cannot move with ease. One should therefore use the mind instead of force, so that vital energy will follow in the wake of the mind or conciousness and circulate all over the body. Through persistant practice one will be able to have genuine internal force. This is what taijiquan experts call "Lithe in appearance, but powerful in essence".

A master of Taijiquan has arms which are as strong as steel rods wrapped in cotton with immense power concealed therein. Boxers of the "Outer School" (a branch of wush with emphasis on attack, as opposed to the "Inner School" which places the emphasis on defence) look powerful when they exert force but when they cease to do so, the power no longer exists. So it is merely a kind of superficial force.

7. Coordination Of Upper And Lower Parts

According to the theory of taijiquan, the root is in the feet, the force is launched through the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed by the fingers; the feet, the legs and the waist form a harmonious whole. When the hands, the waist and the legs move, the eyes should follow their movements. This is meant by coordingation of the upper and lower parts. If any part should cease to move, then the movements will be disconnected and fall into disarray.

8. Harmony Between The Internal And External Parts

In practising taijiquan, the focus is on the mind and conciousness. Hence the saying: "The mind is the commander, the body is subservient to it". With the tranquility of the mind, the movements will be gentle and graceful. As far as the "frame" is concerned, there are only the Xu (empty), shi (solid), kai (open) and he (close). Kai not only means opening the four lims but the mind as well, he means closing the mind along with the four limbs. Perfection is achieved when one unifies the two and harmonizes the internal and external parts into a complete whole.

9. Importance Of Continuity

In the case of the "Outer School" (which emphasizes attack) of boxing, the strength one exerts is still and the movements are not continuous, but are sometimes made off and on, which leaves opening the opponent may take advantage of. In taijiquan, one focuses the attention on the mind instead of force, and the movements from the begenning to the end are continuous and in an endless circle, just "like a river which flows on and on without end" or "like reeling the silk thread off cocoons".

10. Tranquility In Movement

In the case of the "Outer School" of boxing, the emphasis is on leaping, bouncing, punching and the exertion of force, and so one often gasps for breath after practising. But in taijiquan, the movement is blended with tranquility, and while performing the movements, one maintains tranquility of mind. In practising the "frame", the slower the movement the better the results. this is because when the movements are slow, one can take deep breath and sink it to the dan tian. It has a soothing effect on the body and the mind.

Learners of taijiquan will get a better understanding of all this through careful study and persistant practice.

 

[oaktree]

In yang style are you 100%empty on your leg? In Chen, at least as I was taught or/and remember we are never 100%full or empty there is a little bit reserve, I think if I recall it had to do with the kua structure I would have to keep it in mind when I practice the form to examine more.

As for limp in Baguazhang we don't have it definitely peng energy all the way to the fingers and tiger mouth and the rotation I think of it like a smashing energy.
In daito ryu aikijutsu there is softness but sensei still had some peng firmness.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In yang style are you 100%empty on your leg? In Chen, at least as I was taught or/and remember we are never 100%full or empty there is a little bit reserve, I think if I recall it had to do with the kua structure I would have to keep it in mind when I practice the form to examine more.

As for limp in Baguazhang we don't have it definitely peng energy all the way to the fingers and tiger mouth and the rotation I think of it like a smashing energy.
In daito ryu aikijutsu there is softness but sensei still had some peng firmness.

You occasionally have one leg100% empty in both Yang and Chen...kinda sorta

 

[oaktree]

Ah yes you are correct golden roaster Also has it but I think your single whip is 100%full on lead leg? I have done only a little bit of yang to me, feels that style has more empty fullness then Chen stylist.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The last one is Chen Zhenglei doing (金刚捣碓), Jin gang dao zhui aka Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

 

[oaktree]

I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.
How does one use fa jin with a limp body?
I feel all this limp and firm has innuendo here

 

[mograph]

I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.

Loose until moment of contact. Right, XS?

 

[Tez3]

I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.
How does one use fa jin with a limp body?
I feel all this limp and firm has innuendo here

You knew I'd be reading this! The temptation to post something innuendo'ish was killing me.