LEO/Civilian understanding

[loki09789]

I've read quite a few threads that either were about, or had comments about the apathy/unprofessionallism or ineffectiveness of the police in responding to or properly dealing with a self defense call. They generally start with

"Yeah, the cop wouldn't even press charges..."

"Or, all I did was defend myself and I was treated like the problem"

"I have had many experiences where the police wouldn't even come..."

This bothers me, personally and within the philosophical/systematic study of self defense. Harmony between every layer of self defense makes for a better network. I am NOT targeting or criticising or minimizing or ... any or 'izing' of these bad experiences.

My question for those who have 'been there done that' about dealing with police before/during/after a self defense situation is: Does anyone have a positive/productive story about the experience?

My question for those who are LEO's is this:

What is it about your job/duties, or the reporting/enforcement procedure, that the average citizen might be misunderstanding and therefore accusing you as an institution of not doing your job...?

Believe me, I have had my negative experiences with LEO's on a case by case basis as well. I am not idealizing the profession.

My goal with this is to get a positive exchange of expectations/explanations so that the LEO's will get a better sense of how to develop a "Bedside Manner" and the civies will have a clearer idea of what an LEO is really suppose to do so that we don't 'assume' that a cop isn't doing his job.

Paul M.

 

[Cruentus]

One of the biggest part of the problem is that civilians in general aren't educated on the LEO's point of view. If the civilian understood the cops viewpoint, then they would know how to better react and handle things when the cops are involved.

I am a civilian, but I was going to be a LEO before I took another career path. I had the chance to do some research on the job, including some drive alongs with an officer. Here are a few things that civilians don't realize:

1. Cops often don't know who the bad guy is when they arrive on the scene. This is greatly misunderstood. If a guy swings at you in a bar, and the cops arrive while you are "fighting" the guy, they won't know who started it, or who is at fault. If you are involved in a domestic dispute (sadly, this seems to make up a large amount of the calls that cops get) and your spouse or roomate "started it" or is the one causing the problem, you can't expect the cops to know this when they arrive. The best thing you can do is be calm and do what they tell you. You will get a chance to make your statement. Let the other guy yell at the cops and act like a jerk because he is trying to "get his story in." Even if they are lying, you will get the chance to tell your side. If you let the cops do what they need to do to sort things out by listening to them and being calm, then you will be looked at much more favorably.

2. The cops are trained to do certian things to keep them safe. So, do not do things that go against what they are trained that might make them feel that they are in danger! In other words, don't get out of the car immediatly when your pulled over. Your not being pulled over because your his friend. Keep your hands visable too, and don't make sudden, figity movements. If your not guilty don't act like you are. Cops get stabbed at or shot at or grabbed or punched all the time from criminals who demonstrate this kind of behavior. So, they are trained to do certain things and be on the lookout for certian things. If you are an innocent person, then DON"T DO THESE THINGS!

Also, you never know what a cop might really be looking for. Just let him do his job. I remember once when I was driving with a car load of friends when I was a teenager, and we got pulled over. My friends were acting like usual idiots because "they didn't do anything." I watched the cop cautiously walk up to the car, as he unstrapped and (what looked like) cocked his gun. He was ready for something, so I warned my friends, "Heh...don't F-around, this guy is serious!" Sure enough, he had each of us get out one at a time, he searched us, and the car when backup arrived. What happened was there was a driveby shooting that day with a car that fit my friends vehicle description. At first, it seemed to my friends that this cop was just being an A-hole. The reality is that they were in serious persuit of a criminal.

On a positive note, I almost always have a positive experience with the county cops in my area. They have always been very logical and fair when having to fill out reports and such, and they have always been a good backup when I did some security work.

I'm sure there are others who can add more advice. I just think that civilians would be able to respect cops more if they would do a little research so they can see things from the cops point of view.

 

[Black Bear]

Differs from service to service. The local Police Service of my city is for the most part very professional (though at the moment there are a couple alleged scandals showing up in the media--one involving alleged extortion of street prostitutes about 25 years ago, and another involving a cop telling a security guard to turn off the surveillance camera, then beating the tar out of a suspect). In all of my dealings with them, they have used good judgement and reserve, and evidenced excellent training, courtesy, firmness, and grace. The RCMP on the other hand, are by all reports, as well as my limited personal experience, a bunch of bucolic, braying morons.

 

[Cruentus]

Differs from service to service. The local Police Service of my city is for the most part very professional (though at the moment there are a couple alleged scandals showing up in the media--one involving alleged extortion of street prostitutes about 25 years ago, and another involving a cop telling a security guard to turn off the surveillance camera, then beating the tar out of a suspect). In all of my dealings with them, they have used good judgement and reserve, and evidenced excellent training, courtesy, firmness, and grace. The RCMP on the other hand, are by all reports, as well as my limited personal experience, a bunch of bucolic, braying morons.

Departmental differences is something I noticed as well. When I was looking into getting hired I was recommended to work in Oakland Country rather then Wayne (both metro detroit area, but Oakland is more suburb). It had little to do with the danger of working in central Detroit, but had more to do with the politics and the way the departments were run. It is evident when dealing with Wayne County in that there is more curruption and problems then the other counties.

So yes, some departments won't put up with bad behavior from their staff, and insist that their officers uphold professionalism, while others seem to allow bad behavior.

PAUL

 

[dearnis.com]

Paul hits it on the head pretty well. To sum up:
I am not jeopardizing my safety because you are sure you are in the right. I am obligated, professionally and morally, to conduct as complete an investigation as possible. There are no guarantees you will like the result. Real life is not television, and no, I don't need you to interfere, tell me how to do my job, or tell me what you will or won't do.
Some things to remember- if you get into a fight with another party and there are no witnesses it is your word against theirs. The responding officers don't know you from Adam and being as polite and cooperative as possible lends credibility to your side. (yes, the other guy gets to tell his side too).
If you are intoxicated your credibility just went down the tubes; your big blowout has probably just become a mutually consenting conflict between two drunks (ie you are both getting arrested for disorderly conduct).
If you are in a domestic situation/altercation the responding officers have very little discretion in how they handle the situation. (a foot note- agency/state guidelines define domestic situation; not your personal opinion).
If you lie to or withhold relevent information you have not made friends.
Lastly, and well illustrated by Paul's example, you have no way of knowing what came over the radio, or what some guy wearing the same jacket as you may have been reported as doing earlier in the evening.
Play it cool, and let the officers sort things out. Yes, it is obvious that something is wrong or you wouldn't need the police; still, be in a position to present yourself and your side of the story in the best light possible.
Oh yeah, if you are read your miranda rights, use them.

 

[Black Bear]

Be nice to everyone, until it's time to not be nice.

Especially police officers.

Even a$$holes.

Even (or should I say, especially) police officers who happen to also be a$$holes.

 

[Tgace]

Take a look at a thread I started earlier....
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12084
It touches on a lot of topics relative to this one.

Dearnis hit most of my points already. I would add...
-Keep your hands out of your pockets. No fast movements.
-Stay in your car unless directed otherwise. Dont start reaching for license/papers until directed.
-Follow directions when given. I cant stand the people who try to debate/bargain with me when I tell them to do something...you will get a chance later.
-Dont argue law on the scene. If you think Im right or wrong, on the street Im "always right". In court I can be wrong. That may sound pompus, but thats the way it goes. If I say "you are under arrest" you are under arrest even if you didnt do it. If I was mistaken, court is where that will be decided. If I was negligent or did something illegal then I could face charges later. Resisting, running or fighting will just result in more charges. And those can stand up even if my arrest was illegal.
-When I ask "do you have any weapons?" If the answer is "Yes" just say "yes" dont reach for it to give it to me. Sounds silly, but it happens a lot.

 

[Thesemindz]

Before I start, I want to point out that I haven't had to deal with cops after any kind of serious criminal or violent incident. My involvement with them has always been after minor infringements.

In my experience, most of the cops I've dealt with have had a Rambo mentality. I've had cops say they were about to "blow my brains out," or "sling some led threw my windshield." I've had more than one officer come to my window with his gun drawn and pointed in my direction. These incidents were all involving traffic stops. Now, admittedly, I was a teenage kid with long hair and probably looked like the kind of uneducated punk that needed to be put in his place right away. I have had some cops that were reasonable and respectful, of course they still gave me a ticket so I'm not sending them any christmas cards this year.

I have learned that when cops show up everyone needs to shut up and put their hands in the air. The cops know that they are in charge, and they're more than willing to remind you of that fact should you forget. Dealing with the cops in a respectful manner hasn't gotten me out of trouble, but at least the ride down town was a pleasant one. I know that if the cops show up you end most sentences with "sir," you only speak when spoken to, answer their questions to the best of your ability without being pedantic, and hope you are in the right. That doesn't mean you won't still suffer as a result of their involvement, but at least you won't get a beating on top of it.

I went to a high school that wasn't too bad, but had it's share of police appearances. I've seen kids pepper sprayed for not doing what they were told, and I've seen more than one kid get slammed on the hood of a cop car. Just because they catch it on tape doesn't mean it's an isolated incident. In the cases I saw, the kid getting slammed had it coming. Cops know that they aren't the most beloved members of society and they act to defend themselves first. Fair enough, the lesson is clear. Don't make any sudden movements, and you won't get slammed on cars.

As far as positive experiences go, I haven't really had any. I have had friends and relatives beaten, mugged, and hospitalized, and giving a full report to the cops never led any where. That isn't neccessarily the fault of the police, but that doesn't change the fact that they weren't any help. I believe the police help people every day, just by being who they are and where they are, I guess I've just been lucky enough to never need one to save my bacon.

I don't think all cops are bad, I don't even think most cops are bad, and I certaintly think we're better off with them than without them, but I don't go out of my way to attract their attention. Like with most authority figures in life, keeping my head down and my mouth shut has helped me avoid having any real trouble with the police.

-Rob

 

[Black Bear]

Rob, no personal offense intended, but your city obviously sucks mud. "blow your brains out"??? :lol: ! I'm sorry, but :lol: !

Tgace has some good advice.

Cops have a tough job. Something as apparently simple as a traffic stop is extremely stressful and dangerous for a police officer. Bad people are usually also bad drivers. So when they pull a guy over for speeding, they have no idea if this guy maybe has warrants out, and will take the first opportunity to slash or pop 'em. It takes a good guy to be able to remain fair, reasonable, and courteous when that's going through your head.

In every society there are a few professions whose importance and high demands are not reflected by the pay and training that are provided for them.

In my opinion, police officers in my area are not trained enough, but on the other hand they're not paid enough either. Ditto public school teachers in my area. Mmm, can't think of another one right now. I kind of wish my society would take these roles a little more seriously, accord them a little more honour, so that the very best quality young people would become police and educators rather than... well, some other very skilled--but less meaningful--occupations.

 

[Thesemindz]

Rob, no personal offense intended, but your city obviously sucks mud. "blow your brains out"??? :lol: ! I'm sorry, but :lol: !

In all fairness, it could just be that particular cop who sucked mud, and not the entire city.

-Rob

 

[Tgace]

Differs from service to service. The local Police Service of my city is for the most part very professional (though at the moment there are a couple alleged scandals showing up in the media--one involving alleged extortion of street prostitutes about 25 years ago, and another involving a cop telling a security guard to turn off the surveillance camera, then beating the tar out of a suspect). In all of my dealings with them, they have used good judgement and reserve, and evidenced excellent training, courtesy, firmness, and grace. The RCMP on the other hand, are by all reports, as well as my limited personal experience, a bunch of bucolic, braying morons.

Tell ya one thing, the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) have one kick a$$ TRU (tactical response unit) team. Its a dedicated full time SWAT team that trains with the best of the best. They have to cover so much area they have to charter planes to reach incidents. They ran my SWAT school, very impressive.

 

[loki09789]

It is a shame at the lack of positive/productive civie/LEO interaction stories...The general testimonies are nice, but I don't think that they speak the volumes that the negative, specific incident stories tend to.

By the very nature of the job, if you are stopped by the cops, chances are you were in the wrong - for some reason. The emotions rise and the defensiveness kicks in and the adversarial attitude comes up. The cop is always going to be a jerk, if the person getting pulled over, stopped feels that it is personal or prejudice instead of "oops, speeding and got caught" or "yup, ran the red light"... or what ever. The 'they are useless' reaction can also result from a desire for instant gratification: "I got ripped off, reported it and they did NOTHING!" Unless you call and ask about the progress you have no idea what they did. Emotions and self centered expectations can really make it hard to see the larger picture.

On the positive side, I had a neighbor and friend get a 'booty call' from an ex boy friend, only he didn't want to stop when she said no. Yes, it was not the best judgement to let him in to 'crash because he was too drunk', but that doesn't justify rape, committed or attempted. Anyway, I heard her in trouble, knocked. He got stupid, I defended myself and he left.

SHe called 911 and the dispatcher was trying to explain that since he didn't actually rape her it would only be chargeable as assault...blah blah blah..
I took the phone and TOLD the dispatcher that she was assaulted, wanted to press charges and needed a patrolman here. The dispatcher, a woman of all things too, was the real problem in this case.

The LEO who answered the call was great. He was gentle, sensitive to my friends emotional state and very professional about things. We went down to the station, filed the proper paper work and the LEO made a point of offering coffee and such to us (maybe a slow night, or she was cute... but it was a nice gesture. Hey, maybe he thought I was cute...Nah!).

During the trial process he made every court date, and made it a point to say hello to her and ask how she was doing.

Now this might be more about the character of the person than about the profession, but I think that the stress and emotions that come with incidents that normally require LEO/Civlian contact can cloud perception and memory. Trained objectivity is tough.

I have gotten tickets for speeding from LEO that were very courteous, and didn't lecture me about the issue. Now, the fault is my speeding, the job to enforce the speed limit is his/hers. It isn't personal.


Paul M

 

[loki09789]

"In my opinion, police officers in my area are not trained enough, but on the other hand they're not paid enough either."

Could the Warrior Spirit idea work here as an element of individual LEO that stand out as professional and non A$$holey, because they train themselves/develop themselves on things like community policing,verbal judo.... techniques so that they can avoid having to be an A$$hole?

Paul M>

 

[moving target]

I tihnk part of the problem may also be just what people tend to remember. I think most people feal somewhat stressed when dealing with police, If the police do anything at all to agrivate the situation than that memmory goes down as a "bad", or at least "not good" experience. Further I think people are much more likely to communicate bad or very bad experiences to others than good or very good experiences.

My personal experience with police has been rather limited as far as encountering police within the course of their duties, within those experiences I would say about 60%-70% of the cases have been gratuitously negative. There deffinatly are some very nice police officers in the world I just think the not so nice ones tend to get more attention.

 

[Cruentus]

Tell ya one thing, the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) have one kick a$$ TRU (tactical response unit) team. Its a dedicated full time SWAT team that trains with the best of the best. They have to cover so much area they have to charter planes to reach incidents. They ran my SWAT school, very impressive.

I second that! Even as a civilian, I used to hand in windsor and I bacame friends with a few mounties (sp?). I heard about TRU. Basically, if your an american A-hole (as many of the drunks in Windser from Detroit were) you don't F-with the mounties, period! From what I was told and as I understand it, basically Canada doesn't have the many levels of law enforcement that we have here in the states. Because of this, the mounties and special units (like TRU) have a lot of responsabilities, and are therefore highly trained. From my civilian horrible way of explianing LEO stuff (lol) it seems like the mounties are like your county cops with FBI and special unit training.

Very cool stuff!

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

I've read quite a few threads that either were about, or had comments about the apathy/unprofessionallism or ineffectiveness of the police in responding to or properly dealing with a self defense call. They generally start with

"Yeah, the cop wouldn't even press charges..."

"Or, all I did was defend myself and I was treated like the problem"

"I have had many experiences where the police wouldn't even come..."

This bothers me, personally and within the philosophical/systematic study of self defense. Harmony between every layer of self defense makes for a better network. I am NOT targeting or criticising or minimizing or ... any or 'izing' of these bad experiences.

My question for those who have 'been there done that' about dealing with police before/during/after a self defense situation is: Does anyone have a positive/productive story about the experience?

My question for those who are LEO's is this:

What is it about your job/duties, or the reporting/enforcement procedure, that the average citizen might be misunderstanding and therefore accusing you as an institution of not doing your job...?

Believe me, I have had my negative experiences with LEO's on a case by case basis as well. I am not idealizing the profession.

My goal with this is to get a positive exchange of expectations/explanations so that the LEO's will get a better sense of how to develop a "Bedside Manner" and the civies will have a clearer idea of what an LEO is really suppose to do so that we don't 'assume' that a cop isn't doing his job.

Paul M.

Paul M,

I never would ask the police to press charges. I asked if I may press charges.
Many times, they told me no. Sometimes the told me yes. One time I had to request the supervisor to insist that the female officer take the report, as I called 911, when my ex-wife's boyfriend showed up at 11:00 PM at our house before the divorce was final. He said he was going to kill me. She did not want to take the report, because it the domestic law was for only women. And since I was the male, I was guilty, no matter what.

No matter when the police showed up, during or after the altercation, I would follow direct orders, sit and not be agressive or move fast. I ask before I move.

As to the police not coming. What bothered me was that they were upset that I would handle the situation myself. Sending the bad guys to the hospital versus just standing there and ending up in the hospital myself.

These cases are not the complete representation of all police.


I do have a positive incident.

My Ex-wife to be was being aggressive and violent, yet the Personal Protection Order was against me. Yet, she would show up at my place and get violent. They could not arrest her on the PPO. And the fact that she was breaking property under discssion for a divorce they did not wish to get involved. After numerous cases. A bunch of the officers signed a petition wiht out my knowledge and gave it to the Judge so I could get my own PPO against the ex-wife.

One police officer, was nice enough to serve my ex-wife, as she was dodging being served. She worked in one wounty and lived in another. I ahd to get different peopel to try to serve at the different locations. She would run or hide or not allow them into her work place. On Superbowl Sunday in 1999, Sunday because she could not be served or she thought, she got posession of the house for 10 hours to get all of her objects and stuff left. To avoid violating the PPO, the order made reference to the fact that I could have people there to watch. SHe was destroyng everthing. My Freinds called me. I called the police and meet them there. Showed the officer her PPO against me. And also my PPO against her. He went inside, came out a few minutes later and said I could go to jail. I apologized to the officer and said I do nto wish to go to jail. How to I stay out. He said Leave. My friends asked Why would I go to jail? He replied the PPO was immediate actionable by himself and the court order I had to take back to court and prove she had violated. My Friends being there violated the stalking portion of havnig agents stalk her. I apologized to the Officer, and asked if we could all leave. He saw that I did not want a problem. I aksed him to drive by in a while to make sure it(The House) was not on fire, as that could affect the neighbors. He smiled and asked for my PPO against her. He took inside and served her. This meant she could nto come back ever again without risking going to jail.

I have had more negative, then neutral, and more neutral then positive.

With respect to those who are out there doing their job. I know it is hard.
:asian:

 

[Tgace]

Were like the big ugly guard dog in a fancy house, nobody wants us around when company is over but we better do our job at night when the bad guy is breaking in....Everybody wants us to do our job, but nobody really WANTS to see what that job is, and when they do they all act shocked.

 

[loki09789]

"I never would ask the police to press charges. I asked if I may press charges.
Many times, they told me no. Sometimes the told me yes. One time I had to request the supervisor to insist that the female officer take the report, as I called 911, when my ex-wife's boyfriend showed up at 11:00 PM at our house before the divorce was final. He said he was going to kill me. She did not want to take the report, because it the domestic law was for only women. And since I was the male, I was guilty, no matter what."

I have never heard of an LEO telling you that they would refuse to let you press charges, sounds more like a case of the LEO not seeing the actions/situation as a chargeable offense. Wasn't there, so this is strictly armchair QB'ing here. I could be totally wrong.

The residency/guest issue if the address was still your wife's (ex) home while her BF (bad taste on her part, plug in what ever words that fit the letters you want... I meant boyfriend , but and other word starting with an F would work too from the sounds of it), came over... sticky situation.

There is a difference between the LEO pressing charges and taking the report. LEO always have to document/report calls and daily activities. So, chances are they were sympathetic, but hog tied by the legallities and such of the situation. Is it the LEO, or the situation/legallity that was making them seem inaffective or negative in the situation?

Based on the fact that they petitioned, filed for your PPO, sounds like they were rooting for you because they could have just let it stand....

I am glad that this woman is out of your life from the sounds of what was going on. I am glad that your LEO experience was at least partially positive.

Paul M

 

[Black Bear]

"In my opinion, police officers in my area are not trained enough, but on the other hand they're not paid enough either."

Could the Warrior Spirit idea work here as an element of individual LEO that stand out as professional and non A$$holey, because they train themselves/develop themselves on things like community policing,verbal judo.... techniques so that they can avoid having to be an A$$hole?

Paul M>

Striving after excellence with integrity is the most important thing. If this is not cultivated in the departmental culture, than an officer has to pull it out of himself. My city police service has a good departmental culture, where they communicate in many tangible ways what is important to them to serve the public well.

This yields a payout in the public's attitude toward them. I never get annoyed with an officer for pulling me over. I know he's doing his job and he had a good reason to do so. Things like racial profiling and power-tripping never even enter my mind, unless he does something horribly egregious. They have earned my trust and respect. The RCMP, on the other hand, have through the years managed to earn the contempt and resentment of many Canadians. And that's not an easy thing to do.

 

[Tgace]

Pressing Charges. In general, police can make an arrest when a petty offense (violation) occurs in their presence, or if he has probable cause to believe that a crime (misdemeanor or felony) has been commited in his presence or otherwise. In domestic situations, we are mandated to make arrests in certain situations. If we dont believe that we have enough to make an arrest, or the subject has left the scene and immediate arrest isnt feasable, many times we take a report and refer the complaintant to the detective bureau for further investigation and possibly a warrant.