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Sakki: real or a parlor trick?
Discuss.
Discuss.
Lemme stir the pot...
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Archangel M
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The senses trained to perceive "natural" stimuli such as the sound of sleeves/the air disturbed by the blade, lights/shadows etc. Perhaps even on a subconscious level...that I may buy.
The mystical perception of "killing intent"? Im skeptical.
The mystical perception of "killing intent"? Im skeptical.
There's something to it. Is it some mystical energy? I don't know. But I've felt the intent from people that really wanted to hurt me. I think it's something like the way you can feel when someone's looking at you, or it may be the result of the entire combination of senses and perceptions coming together. I don't know if it's some mystical woo-woo stuff, or just some perception that we're wired with as human beings...
If you look at some of the videos of the Bujinkan sakki test that are on-line, you can see a difference in the way the folks who passed move compared to those who didn't. The passes almost seem surprised that they've moved...
Archangel M
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Thats my way of thinking as well. Our brain filters out TONS of data every second. But the subconscious sees all. I think these "feelings" are a product of that "background noise data" bubbling up to the conscious level. Perhaps through training/experience a person can more easily tap into that well.
It is nothing mystical just something that is. Anyone who has faced danger and perceived it before hand understands this. Jks9199 is right on when saying that he knew someone meant him harm. There are however ways to train this skill set. They are subtle and fairly reliable but not mystical or magical by any means.
This skill set is availble for everyone if they are willing to acknowledge it.
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I think one of the hardest things about this is to learn to listen to your instincts, to get that gut feeling and not discount it. We have a set of Fighting Principles in Bando; the last one is to "sense dangerous situations." You only learn to do this by practicing all the others, by training diligently and properly.It is nothing mystical just something that is. Anyone who has faced danger and perceived it before hand understands this. Jks9199 is right on when saying that he knew someone meant him harm. There are however ways to train this skill set. They are subtle and fairly reliable but not mystical or magical by any means.This skill set is availble for everyone if they are willing to acknowledge it.
I was hugely fortunate to have a teacher who knew this, and could teach it. I've seen people who know it -- but can't or don't teach it, and even more who don't know it at all. I hope I am teaching my students... though I've got one that needs a bit of a reality check...
Absolutely, trust those instincts and make that a major part of your everyday life. Like you I have been fortunate as well to have good teachers that understood this. Even before that however I was inducted into it in a couple of moments of violence. Baptism by fire.
I'm always curious as to why things that most people perceive as natural they are so willing to quickly call "mystic" when they are associated with tales of glory and older wisdom. One might think these tales of glory are around to remind us to stop befuddling ourselves with looking at things on strange angles.
Subconsciousness ... intuition ... gut feeling ... sakki .... Isn't it all the same thing?
Subconsciousness ... intuition ... gut feeling ... sakki .... Isn't it all the same thing?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
pretty much what She said
Might not be an aspect of sakki, but when I calm myself, my spirit and mind, I am indeed more aware. In this society, its really hard to be calm. So much noise, distraction, bills to pay, people to feed... hard to just live and be deeply aware of your surroundings.
I do seem to recall Hatsumi discussing that you can't really prepare for the test, and, if I recall correctly, said that the best idea might be to take walks. I find I actually observe more when I'm driving slow, or when I can sit down and actually be relaxed. Might be related?
I do seem to recall Hatsumi discussing that you can't really prepare for the test, and, if I recall correctly, said that the best idea might be to take walks. I find I actually observe more when I'm driving slow, or when I can sit down and actually be relaxed. Might be related?
As with anything, it could be both depending upon those involved.
I can perceive intent as well as project it. I have been places and been upset, and just breathed to stay calm and did not look at people, but those around me knew better than enter my space.
It is nothing mystical just something that is. Anyone who has faced danger and perceived it before hand understands this. Jks9199 is right on when saying that he knew someone meant him harm. There are however ways to train this skill set. They are subtle and fairly reliable but not mystical or magical by any means.This skill set is availble for everyone if they are willing to acknowledge it.
Learning to let go and feel the force I mean your instinct is something that in a polite society most people have trained themselves to not do. This might be why those involved with violence sometimes are in such shock as there system is trying to catch up.
Absolutely, trust those instincts and make that a major part of your everyday life. Like you I have been fortunate as well to have good teachers that understood this. Even before that however I was inducted into it in a couple of moments of violence. Baptism by fire.
Having been in a situation where one has to learn to survive always helps.
It could be. And in my mind it is. But, I recognize I do not train the art in question and there could be something new for me to learn.
The brain filters and processes an incredible amount of information. Very little of it bubbles up to the conscious mind. We spend a lot of time ignoring sensations, especially in noisy, hyperstimulating urban environments.
There are plenty of martial arts which practice blindfolded sparring. Students learn to feel air currents and vibrations or hear pretty subtle things like the deadening of sound when someone steps in front of a ventilation duct.
Occam's Razor, brothers. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem. We can explain it without positing anything new, so there's no reason to add the woo-woo.
I won't say it isn't "mystical" though. Training in many such traditions includes being aware of what is going on around you and separating it from what is going on inside your head. In that sense there is a "mystic" training process at work. But it's a very concrete matter-of-fact thing.
There are plenty of martial arts which practice blindfolded sparring. Students learn to feel air currents and vibrations or hear pretty subtle things like the deadening of sound when someone steps in front of a ventilation duct.
Occam's Razor, brothers. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem. We can explain it without positing anything new, so there's no reason to add the woo-woo.
I won't say it isn't "mystical" though. Training in many such traditions includes being aware of what is going on around you and separating it from what is going on inside your head. In that sense there is a "mystic" training process at work. But it's a very concrete matter-of-fact thing.
Shicomm
Purple Belt
It's a different game if you've only seen it on tape , having seen it for real is somthing else 
Imho it's very real but it's very hard to explain why
Imho it's very real but it's very hard to explain why
allenjp
Brown Belt
All I know is that every single time I spend more than a second looking at someone, they turn and look back at me. Especially when I'm driving in my car. Do they feel it? Do they see my face turned toward them out of the corner of their eye? I don't know.
If you read Cesar Millan's books, (the dog whisperer) he talks about animals perceiving what he calls energy. I think we all have seen how a lot of animals seem to almost have a sixth sense. Are they just picking up on sensory clues that we are not very intuned to? I don't know.
But it seems to me that whatever causes these phenomena can be intensified for the person that knows how to sharpen all their senses.
I have seen videos of this test, and it doesn't seem possible to me that it is not real. Just my .02 of a dollar.
If you read Cesar Millan's books, (the dog whisperer) he talks about animals perceiving what he calls energy. I think we all have seen how a lot of animals seem to almost have a sixth sense. Are they just picking up on sensory clues that we are not very intuned to? I don't know.
But it seems to me that whatever causes these phenomena can be intensified for the person that knows how to sharpen all their senses.
I have seen videos of this test, and it doesn't seem possible to me that it is not real. Just my .02 of a dollar.
Do some research on reaction speed. Once the blade starts moving downward in the godan test, it is physically impossible for you to hear or see something and react in time to not get hit.
Archangel M
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But some psychic ability to detect "killing intent" and then physically move is faster? Is the "intent" slower than the physical movement??
Well, intention pretty much has to precede action, right? So, maybe whatever it is, maybe just "looking at extra hard", comes before the actual cut?
I know that in class, I've felt students intent to strike before they tried to hit me. On the street, I've picked up on someone getting that "happy feet" feeling, or deciding whether or not to hit me before they did it -- and was able to prevent either by moving before them...
Noticing when people are checking you out or if they notice when you are checking them out is something definately to cultivate.
Absolutely!
I just wanted to say what an excellent thread this is ladies and gentlemen. The principles discussed are precisely the same as what is termed zanshin in the Japanese Sword Arts.
As only a nidan, I'm not sure that I'd be able to 'detect' an attack from behind from someone who was already standing there but we do train to prempt cuts without warning from sword-length range.
It's not mystical as I would term it but you do certainly pick up on intent to strike before the sword begins to move. The oddity is that if you concentrate too much on, say, watching the eyes/hands etc then you are less efficient at picking this up than the diffuse awareness ('wide zanshin' my sensei calls it) that a swordsman is expected to wear at all times when he is not actually engaged.
As only a nidan, I'm not sure that I'd be able to 'detect' an attack from behind from someone who was already standing there but we do train to prempt cuts without warning from sword-length range.
It's not mystical as I would term it but you do certainly pick up on intent to strike before the sword begins to move. The oddity is that if you concentrate too much on, say, watching the eyes/hands etc then you are less efficient at picking this up than the diffuse awareness ('wide zanshin' my sensei calls it) that a swordsman is expected to wear at all times when he is not actually engaged.
Archangel M
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I wouldn't think that the time between the intent to swing the sword and the actual swinging of the sword would be of any significant difference when it comes to reaction time. When fighting face to face you can notice things like the opponent glancing at where he intends to strike, picking up on patterns of movement and technique. All very quantifiable data.
I'm sure you can pick up on intent, but what is it that picks it up? Data enters the brain box through the senses. I still posit that the perception of "intent" is explainable through a conscious or subconscious sensing of stimuli. In the more "mystical" sense through a subconscious response to stimuli. Ive sensed peoples intent before as well. But if I looked back on it many "threat indicators" were present. Target glance, fist clenching, thousand yard stare, ignoring commands, jaw tightening, paling of the skin. As humans we all have similar reactions prefight. Some people can sense those indicators without consciously knowing about them. I think that this test is a different manifestation of the same phenomena.
I'm sure you can pick up on intent, but what is it that picks it up? Data enters the brain box through the senses. I still posit that the perception of "intent" is explainable through a conscious or subconscious sensing of stimuli. In the more "mystical" sense through a subconscious response to stimuli. Ive sensed peoples intent before as well. But if I looked back on it many "threat indicators" were present. Target glance, fist clenching, thousand yard stare, ignoring commands, jaw tightening, paling of the skin. As humans we all have similar reactions prefight. Some people can sense those indicators without consciously knowing about them. I think that this test is a different manifestation of the same phenomena.
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