Leg training: Alternatives to squats?

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm looking for some alternative to squats (and lunges) that may or may not exist. My knees hate them, and I suspect my problem means I don't have a good alternative, but I thought I'd reach out to folks here for ideas. Here's the issue - my knees "give out" on the way down in squats. By "give out" I mean, something nervy happens, and the muscles just stop working. It's noticeable even in body-weight squats (and walking down stairs), and becomes a real issue somewhere under 100 lbs of added weight. Note that I can still lift a signficant amount (not sure how much), but can't lower it.

So, for those with more knowledge, any ideas on how to keep quadriceps and glutes from losing mass? I've been using a rowing machine a lot, because there's no resistance on the compression ("lowering"), and I can put a fair amount of force into the extension.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Check out this thread for some info:
Plyometrics
Particularly @Buka's post on the second page, and @drop bear's first reply.

 

[DanT]

Stair climbing / stair climber machine.

 

[_Simon_]

Hmmm that's interesting Gerry, is there knee pain at all when doing any particular exercises? Or does it just give out? Am not sure what to recommend really as I'm not 100% sure what's happening.. sounds like the fibres in the quads just relax prematurely during the eccentric phase (or other muscle groups are excessively tense/carrying the load, therefore sending a message to the quads that they're not as needed), but I'm unsure whether you need to work on strengthening the connection there or work on relaxing potentially overtight other muscles (glutes/hams)...

I've also been looking into alternate quad exercises as a) I can't do medium-heavy squats due to my pelvic issues, and b) have been having some right knee pain. Been doing light leg extensions and some knee rehab exercises. And just before did some uphill running which worked them a fair bit (not exactly will bulk up the mass but did it moreso for cardio reasons).

Potentially working on pistol squats to help with your knee giving out might help? As in just emphasising the eccentric/negative component. So doing normal both legs squat on the way up, then lowering yourself pistol/one leg style. Or trying the opposite, lowering yourself down on both legs, and shifting weight to one leg and driving up. Unsure which would be best for you!

Otherwise switching to leg extensions or even leg press may help more with stability as there's less for the body to 'think about' during the movement, but not too sure what would be best and moreso safest for your situation sorry mate.

Interested in others' thoughts though!

 

[Buka]

Easiest way to completely eliminate the knee from glut building is to lie face down on the floor. Bend the right knee to forty five so the flat of your foot is facing the ceiling. Now raise that leg, bringing the knee off the floor. Try to keep the front part of both hips on the floor, your body is going to want to cheat and lean to the side.

Just use the weight of the leg for a while, it's all you'll need. Have to pay constant attention to the angle of the knee. Once the lower part of your leg starts lazing to the floor - the strain of raising the leg switches to your hamstring and off your glute. The more you tire, the more likely your rising leg will start to straighten, so beware. Helps if someone watches you. Set of ten. Then, obviously, switch legs.

If you have someone willing to partner with you - have them put their hand on the back of your hamstring when your leg is raised, and have them push down as you resist. They shouldn't completely overpower you, which is real easy to do, they should do it to make you work. It's a great way to strengthen the glute, but it's seriously nasty. I mean nasty.

Also.....I know what you said about squats. But there's a chance this might work for you, so maybe give it a shot.

Stand with a chair behind you. [The higher the seat of the chair, the better.] Put a folded pillow between your knees. Put your hands at the back of your head [or thereabouts]

Slowly, as you stick your butt back towards the chair, lower yourself. You want to try to sit down without making any noise whatsoever. To softly put your glutes into the back of that chair's seat, and not fall with a plop. Then, slowly stand. Set of ten. Rest. Etc.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hmmm that's interesting Gerry, is there knee pain at all when doing any particular exercises? Or does it just give out? Am not sure what to recommend really as I'm not 100% sure what's happening.. sounds like the fibres in the quads just relax prematurely during the eccentric phase (or other muscle groups are excessively tense/carrying the load, therefore sending a message to the quads that they're not as needed), but I'm unsure whether you need to work on strengthening the connection there or work on relaxing potentially overtight other muscles (glutes/hams)...

I've also been looking into alternate quad exercises as a) I can't do medium-heavy squats due to my pelvic issues, and b) have been having some right knee pain. Been doing light leg extensions and some knee rehab exercises. And just before did some uphill running which worked them a fair bit (not exactly will bulk up the mass but did it moreso for cardio reasons).

Potentially working on pistol squats to help with your knee giving out might help? As in just emphasising the eccentric/negative component. So doing normal both legs squat on the way up, then lowering yourself pistol/one leg style. Or trying the opposite, lowering yourself down on both legs, and shifting weight to one leg and driving up. Unsure which would be best for you!

Otherwise switching to leg extensions or even leg press may help more with stability as there's less for the body to 'think about' during the movement, but not too sure what would be best and moreso safest for your situation sorry mate.

Interested in others' thoughts though!

There is pain sometimes. It varies - in existence, intensity, and location (my knees have always been kinda crap). Lately, the most consistent discomfort (not sure I'd call it "pain" most of the time) is behind the top of the patella. The feeling of weakness is inside the joint, rather deep, which makes very little sense to me (and put a thoughtful look on the doc's face when we talked about it last time). To give you an idea of it, I "feel" my knees going up and down stairs, but going up it's just a tiny sensation. On the way down stairs, I feel that nagging discomfort and a tiny bit of weakness. If I were to try going 2 stairs at a time on the way down (which I often do on the way up) with any speed, I have a strong suspicion I'd fall.

Leg press is actually a bit worse, and seems to irritate my knees more (perhaps because I am more aggressive, since there's no threat of actually falling down with a bar of weights?). The pistol squats (using both legs on the way down) might be an answer. I'd thought of trying something similar with the leg press - just using a weight that's right for one leg, and using both on the resistance stroke. I'll give it a shot and see how it helps.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Stair climbing / stair climber machine.

I'll give that a shot, too. I find them boring beyond thought (I used to like them), but it shouldn't bother my knees any more than actual stairs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Easiest way to completely eliminate the knee from glut building is to lie face down on the floor. Bend the right knee to forty five so the flat of your foot is facing the ceiling. Now raise that leg, bringing the knee off the floor. Try to keep the front part of both hips on the floor, your body is going to want to cheat and lean to the side.

Just use the weight of the leg for a while, it's all you'll need. Have to pay constant attention to the angle of the knee. Once the lower part of your leg starts lazing to the floor - the strain of raising the leg switches to your hamstring and off your glute. The more you tire, the more likely your rising leg will start to straighten, so beware. Helps if someone watches you. Set of ten. Then, obviously, switch legs.

If you have someone willing to partner with you - have them put their hand on the back of your hamstring when your leg is raised, and have them push down as you resist. They shouldn't completely overpower you, which is real easy to do, they should do it to make you work. It's a great way to strengthen the glute, but it's seriously nasty. I mean nasty.

Also.....I know what you said about squats. But there's a chance this might work for you, so maybe give it a shot.

Stand with a chair behind you. [The higher the seat of the chair, the better.] Put a folded pillow between your knees. Put your hands at the back of your head [or thereabouts]

Slowly, as you stick your butt back towards the chair, lower yourself. You want to try to sit down without making any noise whatsoever. To softly put your glutes into the back of that chair's seat, and not fall with a plop. Then, slowly stand. Set of ten. Rest. Etc.

I'll give both of those a shot. I'm a bit leary of chair squats, I have to admit, because I've been told (by my PT, I think) that there's some evidence the top part of the squat (just above 90 degrees) is the hardest part on the knees, and reversing there makes it harder. But, if it doesn't bother my knees, I'll assume it's not doing anything harmful - my knees tend to complain pretty quick, so I trust them as a warning system.

 

[jobo]

( weighted)Squats are notorious ly bad for for you, stop doing squats, its not a natural movement and it loads the body up in ways it wasn't designed for, if you want to lift big weights with your legs do dead lifts, you can either drop the weight or put it down on an elevated surface if you want to avoid the eccentric, either way you don't end up in a heap on the floor with a big barbell on top of you.if you really want the squatting motion, then squat down and lift one end of a barbell, you again have the option to drop it if you need to

If you want a simple quad exercise, sit on the floor knees bent, put a rope around one or both feet, holding the ends, then push your leg away from you whilst resisting with you arms, then pull back whilst resisting with you leg. It also does wonders for your e arms abs and pecs and grip strength.. The stronger you upper body becomes in resisting, the more of a work out your quads get and you can control the eccentric to a level your happy with.

On the subject of functional strength, if your having trouble walking down stairs, a walking down stairs exercise seems good . a tall building with a lift and a stairway seems ideal

 

[Gerry Seymour]

( weighted)Squats are notorious ly bad for for you, stop doing squats, its not a natural movement and it loads the body up in ways it wasn't designed for, if you want to lift big weights with your legs do dead lifts, you can either drop the weight or put it down on an elevated surface if you want to avoid the eccentric, either way you don't end up in a heap on the floor with a big barbell on top of you.if you really want the squatting motion, then squat down and lift one end of a barbell, you again have the option to drop it if you need to

I need to look at the equipment available to me - not sure there's a viable option for the deadlift. If there is, I'll need to get some coaching - it's not an exercise I've used, so I'm likely to do it improperly, which I understand is a NGT (Not Good Thing).

There seems to be very conflicting information about squats. My PT doesn't seem to have a problem with them, so long as they are done properly and not over-weighted. Some of the recent research I've done seems to lean toward the biggest problem being the oft-given advice not to go past 90 degrees, which puts the knees in their most vulnerable state during the highest stress (reversal of the motion).

If you want a simple quad exercise, sit on the floor knees bent, put a rope around one or both feet, holding the ends, then push your leg away from you whilst resisting with you arms, then pull back whilst resisting with you leg. It also does wonders for your e arms abs and pecs and grip strength.. The stronger you upper body becomes in resisting, the more of a work out your quads get and you can control the eccentric to a level your happy with.

On the subject of functional strength, if your having trouble walking down stairs, a walking down stairs exercise seems good . a tall building with a lift and a stairway seems ideal

The issue with walking down stairs (and the eccentric stage of squats) isn't muscular, per my doc. He says it's partly arthritis and partly something nerve-related (we're trying to work that part out), based on how it happens. Strengthening the legs doesn't seem to help, nor does more activity. More stairs down (while being good for my legs in general) just means I get to "enjoy" that sensation more often.

 

[hoshin1600]

@gpseymour
how is the flexibility in your legs around your knees? i have knee issues that may be similar to yours. i was watching a Youtube vid about stretching and this biomechanics guy was saying that you can loosen your tendons around the knee with stretching. stretching activates a change in the ligaments that increase the plasticity. part of my issue is that at a full bend my knee feels like its going to pop like a water balloon. i am thinking of doing more stretching now and see if it helps. in the past i always thought about just strengthening the area.

 

[Flying Crane]

Gerry, have you had a medical evaluation to make sure there isn’t some kind of neurological or other potentially serious issue in the mix?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@gpseymour
how is the flexibility in your legs around your knees? i have knee issues that may be similar to yours. i was watching a Youtube vid about stretching and this biomechanics guy was saying that you can loosen your tendons around the knee with stretching. stretching activates a change in the ligaments that increase the plasticity. part of my issue is that at a full bend my knee feels like its going to pop like a water balloon. i am thinking of doing more stretching now and see if it helps. in the past i always thought about just strengthening the area.

A good thought. I don't think flexibility is an issue at the knee (higher in the leg is a different matter). I can easily stay squatted where the knee is fully bent, or stay in seiza. Ask me to do the old not-good-for you version of the soccer stretch, and you'll see the problem shows up in the quads and hip area.

 

[jks9199]

The Crossfit website has a lot of good videos on how to do deadlifts properly -- but deads hit different muscles and in different ways than squats. Have you tried squats off a bench? You can use a bar or dumb bells (I like to do Goblet Squats off a bench), and you sit down and stand up... Also, can you do quarter squats or other variants? You might find out that things like the heel raised or toe raised versions (put a block under your heel or toes, respectively) shift things just enough to offset whatever's happening...

Leg extensions and leg curls also let you work on the quads and hamstrings, though I find that they work them in a different way. Also...there's this supine hip extension with leg curl you can do with an exercise ball. Lay on your back, rest your feet on the ball, tighten your core so that you're in a straight line, and curl your legs in. See the video... It'll kick your *** more than you might think...

 

[hoshin1600]

A good thought. I don't think flexibility is an issue at the knee (higher in the leg is a different matter). I can easily stay squatted where the knee is fully bent, or stay in seiza. Ask me to do the old not-good-for you version of the soccer stretch, and you'll see the problem shows up in the quads and hip area.

at the moment i cant sit in Seiza.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

at the moment i cant sit in Seiza.

I can't sit cross-legged. If I get to where I can't sit in seiza, I'll need a chair on the mats. I'll be the old geezer with an aluminum lawn chair, yelling, "Hey, you kids! Get offa my mats!"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Crossfit website has a lot of good videos on how to do deadlifts properly -- but deads hit different muscles and in different ways than squats. Have you tried squats off a bench? You can use a bar or dumb bells (I like to do Goblet Squats off a bench), and you sit down and stand up... Also, can you do quarter squats or other variants? You might find out that things like the heel raised or toe raised versions (put a block under your heel or toes, respectively) shift things just enough to offset whatever's happening...

Leg extensions and leg curls also let you work on the quads and hamstrings, though I find that they work them in a different way. Also...there's this supine hip extension with leg curl you can do with an exercise ball. Lay on your back, rest your feet on the ball, tighten your core so that you're in a straight line, and curl your legs in. See the video... It'll kick your *** more than you might think...

I'll give the bench squats a shot this evening with a light kettlebell. An un-weighted test suggests I'll be sitting down pretty hard. I'll give the other a shot when I'm in the training room next - we have exercise balls in there.

 

[pdg]

Do you get the same sort of feeling if you go down stairs backwards?

I could be well off with this thought, so anyone can point and laugh if they like...

The other week I did a load of different sorts of squats - for a few days after I had that feeling going downstairs (or actually just down a slope too) that my knees were just going to give in. Going down backwards, far less.

I think I've identified the issue for me - I wasn't engaging my glutes enough, so I was putting all the load onto my quads.

If you're alright doing squats, try clenching your cheeks throughout the range of movement in both directions...

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, for those with more knowledge, any ideas on how to keep quadriceps and glutes from losing mass? I've been using a rowing machine a lot, because there's no resistance on the compression ("lowering"), and I can put a fair amount of force into the extension.

Yes, but you probably won't like it. Running. Running is great for the quadriceps and glutes. More specifically "Sprinting". Another great exercise which I like better than sprinting even though I did i competitively for 6 years, is Cycling. You'll need one of these, some padded shorts, and cycling shoes. All are worth it. Get one that is light weight you'll enjoy it more.

The benefit is that you you can engage all of the muscles of the legs when sitting. You can push into the pedals in multiple directions. Except for backwards. You can choose which muscles you engage. Don't get a stationary bike, it doesn't work the same as actually riding on the road. When you ride on the road your body's muscles are engaged to keep balance. Time also flies by faster so it doesn't seem like much of a work out. All you need is a nice large neighborhood or a road that doesn't have much traffic and an early Saturday Morning.

Edit: I'm not sure if Mountain Bikes work the legs out in the same way. Mountain Bikes give you more room to move around in comparison to this type of bike.

 

[JowGaWolf]

goofed post now white space.