LEarning to take strikes article

[lonekimono10]

Defence against grabs look in that one i just watched it again.

 

[Brad S.]

"If you have to ask how come, you won't understand why"

ok Brad i'm going to end this stuff right here and now
1. i see that you don"t have a time line on how long you have been in the martial arts.
2 i don't care about what you do , but i see you take my quote and use it.

3. you don't know what you are talking about and thats that, so live with it son
i was doing kenpo when you were in hiding in the bathroom, know who you are talking to before you say crap like that, if you don't like what i said here is my cell # i would be happy to talk to you, 856-229-5697 call me .

Well, ok.

First time in training has nothing to do with whether or not something is a fact. There are those who say they have been doing something for 30 years but really they have been doing the same thing for one year 30 times over. And, yes you presume that I don't know Kenpo but yes I have studied it for over 2 decades and did martial arts before that. You don't care what I do but you are criticizing another art based on your own experiences. As for taking your quote, the point was to show you that you are critiquing something it sounds like you have not felt-to reserve judgement. Vladimir comes to your area frequently so there is your opportunity to check it out.

I see you are wearing the same belt as Mr. Parker and I wonder if he would have acted this way, with such fear and insecurity as to lash out in personal attacks. I'll ask Edmund when I speak to him. Guess what I checked it out and I found that what was going on was outside the scope of Kenpo (gasp!).

All I said was that using the criteria you have, from a Kenpo background, you could not evaluate what is going on fairly because there are different principles in use. That is not a character judgement.

 

[Kenpo_man]

Well first of all, there are various systema practioners who have successfuly survived dangerous situtations (i will let them tell it should they wish). The redicules part of your statement is saying that Systema doesn't work when clearly you have never experienced it, and no its not the same as Wado Ryu or any other Soft/ Internal arts, sure it might LOOK the similar but alot of people coming from different backgrounds seem to see something similar in it. Even a Kenpo practioner acknowleges it, what more can you ask for (well a Ferrari maybe).

I never implied that systema practitioners couldn't successfully survive a dangerous situation so there is no need to have them tell me about it. In fact I specifically said "I mean no offence to the system and I see some value in the training (I was referring to the exercise in your video)" In the video, people were practicing breathing out with proper timing so they could absorb the blow, were they not? Well that is what I practiced in wado ryu making it very much the same as what I saw being practiced in the video. Wado Ryu, by the way, is a hardstyle/external offshoot of shotokan karate. If it is Kenpo you are reffering to as Soft/Internal, it is actually quite down the middle of soft and hard with a slightly harder approach than a soft one in my opinion. No, I'm not asking for a Ferrari (unless you have an extra one laying around). I am only stating that I believe it is hard to time the breathing when somebody is firing three, four or five strike combinations at you. I think it more vital to learn good movement so the strikes can be made either glancing (i.e. to learn to "roll with the punches") or dodged altogether. Systema has good movement from what I can see. I have nothing but respect for the style itself and not once intended to imply otherwise.

 

[MJS]

Could you please point out which video you're referring to here? Perhaps a link? I didn't see the hammer fist on the back. Thanks.

I just watched the video in question. It was about 14 sec. into the clip. It looked like a hammerfist to me.

Mike

 

[lonekimono10]

"If you have to ask how come, you won't understand why"


Well, ok.


I see you are wearing the same belt as Mr. Parker and I wonder if he would have acted this way, with such fear and insecurity as to lash out in personal attacks. I'll ask Edmund when I speak to him. Guess what I checked it out and I found that what was going on was outside the scope of Kenpo (gasp!).

All I said was that using the criteria you have, from a Kenpo background, you could not evaluate what is going on fairly because there are different principles in use. That is not a character judgement.

Brad, fear WHAT FEAR?? AND I DID NOT LASH OUT WITH A PERSONAL ATTACK
all i was saying was the tecq that i watched i was not moved by it "THATS ALL" oh and as far as calling ED JR. you want his # or do you want to call Mrs Parker i'll give that to you also, i think if you called me we can come to a better understanding(it's hard for people to know how you feel in here)

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Mod Note:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

MJ:asian: ,
MT Moderator

 

[lonekimono10]

here we go again

 

[Kenpodoc]

oh yes there is something i wanted to add ,i saw that in the video's that when you hit,(there was that hammer fist on the back ) you did not drop, (MOG) now please don't take this the wrong way, but where is your power coming from while doing that standing up(like you where in the video

I checked the defense angainst grabs video. (Not the topic of this thread but since you bring up the strike in it.) That hammerfist had no power but it wasn't meant to. The exercise was on a nonresisting opponent and was just a training exercise. Systema has a tendency to add light taps similar in some ways to kenpo slap checks. These taps are not in and of themselves major strikes but they confuse the nervous system of the opponent and make the other manipulations more effective.

Jeff

 

[lonekimono10]

thanks jeff, now if only Brad had said that to me and not all the other crap.

 

[Jackal]

Ahh, I just watched the clip. Kenpodoc had a decent explanation for the movement and it was just an exercise in free movement. I noticed that it wasn't a hammer strike that was delivered, though. To answer the original question, the impact was delivered with the knuckles in a cutting motion rather than pounding with the bottom of the fist. The method for delivering "power" in a strike like that is maximizing the weight of the delivering arm by casting it downward. The goal being to keep enough tension in order for the limb to remain solid, while maintaining enough relaxation so that there is very little muscular tension holding back the weight of the arm. Like a flail, but with more "personality".

I know everyone is always "Rah-rah!" when it comes to delivering "whole body" power, but the reality is that the concept of delivering whole body power is pretty unrealistic when fighting someone who isn't right in front of you and standing still. If you can develop devistating arm punches while standing on one foot and falling backwards, any body involvement thereafter is just gravy.

 

[Paul Genge]

Ahh, I just watched the clip. Kenpodoc had a decent explanation for the movement and it was just an exercise in free movement. I noticed that it wasn't a hammer strike that was delivered, though. To answer the original question, the impact was delivered with the knuckles in a cutting motion rather than pounding with the bottom of the fist. The method for delivering "power" in a strike like that is maximizing the weight of the delivering arm by casting it downward. The goal being to keep enough tension in order for the limb to remain solid, while maintaining enough relaxation so that there is very little muscular tension holding back the weight of the arm. Like a flail, but with more "personality".

I know everyone is always "Rah-rah!" when it comes to delivering "whole body" power, but the reality is that the concept of delivering whole body power is pretty unrealistic when fighting someone who isn't right in front of you and standing still. If you can develop devistating arm punches while standing on one foot and falling backwards, any body involvement thereafter is just gravy.

Spot on...

Paul Genge

 

[Kenpodoc]

Ahh, I just watched the clip. Kenpodoc had a decent explanation for the movement and it was just an exercise in free movement. I noticed that it wasn't a hammer strike that was delivered, though. To answer the original question, the impact was delivered with the knuckles in a cutting motion rather than pounding with the bottom of the fist. The method for delivering "power" in a strike like that is maximizing the weight of the delivering arm by casting it downward. The goal being to keep enough tension in order for the limb to remain solid, while maintaining enough relaxation so that there is very little muscular tension holding back the weight of the arm. Like a flail, but with more "personality".

I know everyone is always "Rah-rah!" when it comes to delivering "whole body" power, but the reality is that the concept of delivering whole body power is pretty unrealistic when fighting someone who isn't right in front of you and standing still. If you can develop devistating arm punches while standing on one foot and falling backwards, any body involvement thereafter is just gravy.

This is the "heavy hands" concept which I still do poorly. However when Sonny Puzikas demonstrated it on me it had remarkably effective and painful consequences.

I practice Kenpo not systema but I find their selective tension and relaxation ideas and drills remarkably effective and useful.

Jeff

 

[Rich Parsons]

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[Brad S.]

Hey Jesse,

Nice reply. Very well put. See you on the floor.

 

[SonnyPuzikas]

Paul posts link to his article about some aspects of developing ability to deal with the strikes. While the subject is very wast and can't possibly be exhausted in one article, Pauls writing is a good primer.
Then an individual with Kenpo background makes a sweeping statement, without understanding the essence of the issue discussed in Pauls article. Adds disclaimer- along the lines of "no disrespect" or something like it...
Then another Kenpo player, who uses a phrase that is very similar to the common saying in Systema ("You have to know how to hold the strike, before you can strike others"- as to the us eof word "hold" instead of "take", "absorb", etc.- different discussion) in his post, cheers the post by the Kenpo comrade (which IMO was lightly challenging in it's nature and wrong in its premises).
Discussion turns to imaginary gravity strike someone noticed in the video with the question- how come there is no body weight- gravity drop to go along with the strike?
Then comes along BradS- Systema instructor with couple decades experience in Kenpo, who is not boasting about it. Refering to the above mentioned phrase he suggests that lack of experience in feeling certain aspects in Systema striking methods could be the problem- trying to see and judge everything through the prizm of knowledge and understanding gained from another art. IMO nothing personal in that statement.
As a response- Kenpo player throws in his baggage (years, belts, etc.), refers to Brad as "son" and suggests that Brad doesn't know what he's talking about... And provides the cell # for more personal contact... Looks little challenging.
And on and on.... :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:
Looks to me like some people want to use their art of choice (Kenpo, BJJ, xyz, etc.) as a measuring stick... While they may have years of experience and deep knowledge in that art, judging another method without spending some time not just watching few clips and reading some forums, but getting to feel it, experiment with it and so on- is little bit ignorant. Regardless of age, years in training and number of stripes on BB. :btg:

 

[Kenpo_man]

Paul posts link to his article about some aspects of developing ability to deal with the strikes. While the subject is very wast and can't possibly be exhausted in one article, Pauls writing is a good primer.
Then an individual with Kenpo background makes a sweeping statement, without understanding the essence of the issue discussed in Pauls article. Adds disclaimer- along the lines of "no disrespect" or something like it...
Then another Kenpo player, who uses a phrase that is very similar to the common saying in Systema ("You have to know how to hold the strike, before you can strike others"- as to the us eof word "hold" instead of "take", "absorb", etc.- different discussion) in his post, cheers the post by the Kenpo comrade (which IMO was lightly challenging in it's nature and wrong in its premises).

Obviously, the the first kenpo guy was me%-} . I agree that my statement was "lightly challenging" and I actually intended it to be. What I didn't intend was for the statement to be taken as a dig at the entire art of systema. I was hoping more for an argument/ debate on the value of the type of training being done in the video. In hindsight, the way I worded my first statement ("Good in theory but . . .") was a little more abrasive than it was originally intended to be. I hope nobody here takes me for an opinionated #%$*. I truly respect the ideas of all styles though I may not agree with all of them. I kinda started the storm that took over in this thread and I apologize (a little late in coming) for not thinking harder about my first post before I submitted it.

 

[lonekimono10]

well let me say the other guy is me,yea i know people think that i'm sometimes rude
but got to tell you that i was not being rude here,the only thing i wanted to know was about the "hammer fist" and not droping your bodyweight.
now i see that some people say that is was not a Hammer fist,and thats ok too.
as far as the other stuff goes, (me calling him "son" yes i did,
but it was in no way an attack on this guy, and to voice what kenpo_man said and Mr Parker, "there is good in all martial arts"
oh yes i do have an open mine to all martial arts,