Learn 7-17x faster with private lessons?

[Flying Crane]

So then the privates should stop after Orange Belt then if the goal is only to learn to defend oneself faster eh? Once that was accomplished, no more need for speed.

no, there is always more to learn, but that's a personal choice.

But if one was ONLY interested in self defense, to the expense of anything else, just a bare bones method that gives you good options for many scenarios, sure, you could stop learning any of the formal curriculum past Orange. I would personally suggest you go thru Purple, it'll give you that extra edge, but yes, you could stop learning more of the curriculum at that point, and just focus on what you know and get really good at it, and it would be enough.

Outside of kenpo, my kung fu sifu says that our first three hand-strikes in Tibetan White Crane, chien choi, pau choi, and khap choi, are enough if all you want to do is fight. If you get really good at those three types of punches, if you get fast with them and you can switch them up quickly, you could fight really well. But of course the complete system is far more than those three punches.

It's a myth to think that you need to learn a complete system and have high rank, if all you are interested in is the ability to defend yourself or fight successfully.

 

[Josh Oakley]

If it were about learning to defend yourself faster, then all that would be taught in privates would be self defense techniques, not kata and forms.

Belts are a recognition of progress ideally, so the two would go together unless you didn't recognize progress with rank or gave rank without progress.

Which is why I went for two years in San Soo without ever putting on a belt. Not that there was no progress, but because I didn't give two craps about belts. The only critiques I had against San Soo were the only school in my whole start proved difficult to attend due to proximity, and that if I missed a class or two it was difficult or sometimes impossible to play catch up. Now I'm with a school that is close by, similar in method to San Soo, and teaches the curriculum through the private lessons. I pay more for it but I get more out of it.

*Disclaimer: Unless you live in Kent, WA or the surrounding area, I'm not trying to sell anything to you.*

As for belts in USSD. I go because I like and learn from the challenges they put in front of me. Yes, belts are a recognition of progress... ideally. Then again, ideally there would be no need for martial arts in the first place. "Ideally" is not a state of existence, nor has it ever been.

And watching my wife get into martial arts, I'll make the stance for katas. Pinan 1 helped my wife learn to defend herself a lot better, along with the defense techniques.

And you're setting up another unnecessary dichotomy here. Techniques and forms work better than either alone. Rather than A or B, I'm choosing A+B.

 

[Flying Crane]

The point was learning to defend oneself fast, not whether forms contributed to one's over all ability to defend oneself. I think that there are few that will argue convincingly that forms are the fastest road to self defense.

yes, that was the topic of the thread. You brought forms and kata into the equation.

the Fastest Road is something that cannot be objectively determined. There are just too many variables involved. What gives quick results for one person may not give the same results for another. People are different that way, and often progression in a skill such as a martial art is not objectively measureable.

However, kata is a very valuable tool that does teach self defense, if you understand kata properly. Notice, I said "A TOOL,' and not "THE TOOL." Nobody who understands kata properly would suggest that kata alone will do the job adequately. But it is a piece of the bigger picture, and it has its place within training. I am sure people here in the forums like Exile would be happy to discuss this further with you. He is a big proponent of kata done properly, and feels it can give tremendous benefit to your training. I tend to agree with him.

I will argue that the use of kata, when used along with other training methods, actually does increase your speed in learning self defense, versus eliminating kata from your schedule. Kata is a method of practicing your material when you do not have a partner to practice with. If you limit yourself to only hands-on training with a live partner, then your training sessions are limited to only those times when a partner can join you to train. I don't know about you, but that is certainly not an every day opportunity for me. So on those days when I don't have a partner to work with, I practice kata, as well as hit the heavy bag, work on basics, and self-defense techs solo, to perfect the physical movement, as well as the concepts in my head. This kind of training will speed your development much more quickly than defaulting into a day off, simply because your training partner is busy and cannot join you.

 

[Danjo]

And watching my wife get into martial arts, I'll make the stance for katas. Pinan 1 helped my wife learn to defend herself a lot better, along with the defense techniques.

Wow, did she get in a fight before and after she learned Pinan 1 and noticed marked improvement?

And you're setting up another unnecessary dichotomy here. Techniques and forms work better than either alone. Rather than A or B, I'm choosing A+B.

I'm not setting up a false dichotomy at all. You stated that the purpose of privates was to increase your ability to defend oneself faster, not to advance to black belt faster. I said that if that were the case then the privates would teach self defense techs not kata. Because while kata may have some connection to improved ability to defend yourself, it's not the fastest road. Even the CMA guys will admit that. THen again, they are not looking for speed training.

 

[Danjo]

yes, that was the topic of the thread. You brought forms and kata into the equation.

That's because kata are what is taught in most private lessons that I've seen. Since the stated purpose of Tracy's "7-17x" faster was explained by the USSD redbelt Josh Oakley as meaning learning to defend yourself faster, not progress in rank faster, it seems silly to try and say that kata are the fastet way to learning self defense. I think you're going to find yourself alone in that position.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not setting up a false dichotomy at all. You stated that the purpose of privates was to increase your ability to defend oneself faster, not to advance to black belt faster. I said that if that were the case then the privates would teach self defense techs not kata. Because while kata may have some connection to improved ability to defend yourself, it's not the fastest road. Even the CMA guys will admit that. THen again, they are not looking for speed training.

Actually yes… and no....kinda... sorta.... maybe.

The problem from my CMA perspective is I cannot separate them and gain anything that is still CMA.

It is all kind of integrated, but I cannot speak for all CMA only those I train. You need a root, stance training, as well as an understanding of the forms and their applications and then you get into free style in traditional CMA. There is no speeding it up there is just time in training. Some will get it faster some will not. My perspective has been my problem with this "7-17x faster" post from the beginning.

You can speed it up if you train Sanda. But Sanda is another animal all together, no forms. There is a lot of training; learning how to hit, how to kick, how to respond and drills; palm strikes, forearm strikes etc and learning combinations. But no forms and there is a lot of defense/attack tech but still no forms but you still need basics to apply anything properly and even though you can learn to use Sanda to defend yourself quicker than a TCMA you still cannot speed that process up and still have it be Sanda.

Without a combination of forms and/or drills as well as sparing you get nothing that is still the art you are training faster. I said this in another post; forms without sparing are hollow and sparing without forms is a brawl. The same can be said of sparing without learning the basics of striking and basic combinations, without the it is again just a brawl.

And you don't need private lessons or group lessons to learn to brawl

 

[Flying Crane]

That's because kata are what is taught in most private lessons that I've seen. Since the stated purpose of Tracy's "7-17x" faster was explained by the USSD redbelt Josh Oakley as meaning learning to defend yourself faster, not progress in rank faster, it seems silly to try and say that kata are the fastet way to learning self defense. I think you're going to find yourself alone in that position.

well, Josh is apparently giving his perspective on where the value of private lessons lie. In my opinion, privates will help you learn your art faster, and different things may be taught during privates. Maybe it's self defenst techs. Maybe it's kata. Maybe it's focusing on improving sloppy basics. I am sure that many different things can be, and are, taught during private lessons, and this may change from lesson to lesson. The point is, that individual attention and feedback allows you to learn the topic of the lesson more quickly than if you have 30 people all crowding around to see what is being taught, and the inherent distractions that go along with it.

Hopefully, an acceleration of the ability to defend oneself will be a part of this process. I think that is the goal, along with learning the system.

As I've stated before, I don't like attaching specific numbers to this process, so I'm not gonna try and defend that point. And I did not state that I feel kata is the fastest way to learn to defend yourself. If you recall, I feel it's difficult to objectively measure things like progression of skill in a martial art. There are just too many variables at play, and at best it's just somebody's judgement and personal evaluation to say "this guy's skills have improved." But you cannot lay down a yardstick and measure it with any real precision.

But I do believe kata is an important tool, and the inclusion of kata, along with other training methods, does provide an avenue for skills to develop more fully, and possibly more quickly. That is, if the kata you are practicing are well designed and not just showmanship stuff, and if you understand the lessons they teach you. And yes, kata is a legitimate thing to be taught in private lessons.

 

[Flying Crane]

It seems to me that the main objection in this thread lies with the specific claim of "7-17 time faster."

I can certainly understand the skepticism that this claim provokes.

But does anyone really dispute the notion that getting some private instruction, along with group training sessions, will probably speed up your learning process and improve the quality of your understanding? I'm not attaching this to getting rank, and I'm laying aside any issues of marketing and business. I'm just talking about the general learning process itself. Does anyone dispute this?

 

[Xue Sheng]

It seems to me that the main objection in this thread lies with the specific claim of "7-17 time faster."

I can certainly understand the skepticism that this claim provokes.

But does anyone really dispute the notion that getting some private instruction, along with group training sessions, will probably speed up your learning process and improve the quality of your understanding? I'm not attaching this to getting rank, and I'm laying aside any issues of marketing and business. I'm just talking about the general learning process itself. Does anyone dispute this?

If the title was “gain more from private lessons” or “private lessons are a good thing” or “private instruction, along with group training sessions, speed up the learning process” or any combination or similar wording that did not include “7-17x faster” or any other arbitrary number as a qualifier I am betting there would have been less objection/discussion.

I know I certainly would have been less confused and/or concerned.

 

[Danjo]

If the title was “gain more from private lessons” or “private lessons are a good thing” or “private instruction, along with group training sessions, speed up the learning process” or any combination or similar wording that did not include “7-17x faster” or any other arbitrary number as a qualifier I am betting there would have been less objection/discussion.

I know I certainly would have been less confused and/or concerned.

That's my point also.

As to the Sanda, I understood that to be a form of kickboxing with some throws. Either way, I wasn't talking about basics, but rather the idea that Kata is the fastest way to learn to defend yourself.

Anyways, it sounds like we're pretty much agreed that: 1) forms are good, but not the fastest way to learn to defend yourself. 2) Privates lessons have some value depending on what's taught and by whom (i.e., a real instructor, not an underbelt) and 3) the 7-17x faster thing is bizzare and non-sensical.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's my point also.

As to the Sanda, I understood that to be a form of kickboxing with some throws. Either way, I wasn't talking about basics, but rather the idea that Kata is the fastest way to learn to defend yourself.

Anyways, it sounds like we're pretty much agreed that: 1) forms are good, but not the fastest way to learn to defend yourself. 2) Privates lessons have some value depending on what's taught and by whom (i.e., a real instructor, not an underbelt) and 3) the 7-17x faster thing is bizzare and non-sensical.

Yes I beleive we pretty much agree

just as a note; Sanda is Kicking and punching, Shuaijiao and Qinna. However the amount of Shuaijiao and Qinna are different between the sport version (Cung Le) and the police military version that I do. But I see your point and therefore Sanda was not exactly the best example here if yuo are talking forms (kata)

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

...
but I can say that that statement is true for the Tracy's curriculum.

The beauty of private lessons are that you (the student) can go at your own speed. That's one of the reasons I initially began kenpo. I was hungry and wanted to learn. I was taking TKD and had to wait for everyone to catch up in order to take a test at a predetermined date. With the private lesson philosophy (in the Tracy schools), a student tests individually when he or she is ready--and there is no belt testing fee.

If you're dedicated and practice then your progress is greatly accelerated.

Not only that, but private lessons provide an opportunity for those less talented, less dedicated students, to stay in kenpo because that student does not have to keep up with anyone.

Teaching privates is hard work. It is much more financially beneficial to teach a large group of people for an hour rather than one person.

Jim

Hello Mr. Hanna,
That original quote came from me in 1987 to Al Tracy in a conversation when he was giving a seminar at my studio in Oregon.

Al noticed in my yellow pages I'd stated, "Learn 7-15 times Faster with Private Lessons!".

This information came about because of my studies in Education (I was a Credentialized and State Certified High School Teacher for many years), and because of the reasearch I'd just finished doing for writing up my Doctorate Dissertation on "Cognitive Restructuring Techniques For Martial Arts Athletes".

And, by increasing the private lessons, giving 2 privates a week, and three privates a week even make that more of an accelerated learning process.

Especially if you have them tape each private, and that evening they write notes and draw diagrams from those notes. Then the student is fast feeding massive amounts of information into his brain and body by use of visual external, auditory external, propioceptives, tactile, digital, visual internal, visceral (emotional content), and auditory internal.

Doing the privates and the notes and diagrams in the above manner will use repetition and submodalites of the VAKOG to imprint proper master keys quickly and easily.

Anyone who's been in Educational Psychology knows that. Anyone that has studied Sports Psychology knows that.

The only ones that say it's all bull are the ones that are very ignorant of the educational facts, and have never tried private lessons, or if they did, they had no clue on how to teach the 3 basic parts of every waza that include:

1. Physical moves
2. Mental strategies and tactics
3. Emotional strategies and tactics for you and to use on the Uke

Let me switch topics a bit. On listening to audios and to learn from them properly, those who sell you those audio state "spaced repetition for at least 17 times".

Which is easily reduced to two times if you do it the following way. First, listen all the way though, paying attention to what you like and don't like.

Then listen, pause and take notes on what you like and don't like. Then "fix" the parts you don't like with what you do like.

Re-read those notes when done, and you will have total memory for about 2 weeks. In 2 weeks re-read those notes again and you will have almost total memory for 6 months.

Ed Reese has a book out on the above Educations Speed Methods.

Thank you Jim.

As always, a very informed post with much good information in it.

Group. So "I" caused all the yellow page ads with that information. Wasn't that nice of me? I have no clue on who changed the 7-15 to 7-17. I assume it was a type someone made and never caught it.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.realspeedhitting.com

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I have always seen..."With private lessons, students can learn 7-17 times faster than with group classes alone."

"students CAN learn..." It's not a hard and fast rule, it is a potential. With privates, students are not held to the rate of the rest of the class. It is good for those who are gifted, and better for those who are not.

The key, as I understand it, is to take a private each week, and attend at least two group classes each week. I have seen students who only attend the privates fall behind, or plateau very easily.

A great point Dave.

Privates need to be taught a certain way, AND they need to go to the groups and to the sparring classes.

One of the great things (my opinion of course) is that NOTE TAKING IS MANDATORY! I mean for every class, private, group and sparring.

If they don't take notes I do not want to waste my time or my skills teaching them...because it will leak out of their head faster than a cow pisses.

Attendence NEVER means that anyone learns a damn thing.

Sweating NEVER means that anyone learns a damn thing.

Being able to do 100 pushups or run five miles or do 100 situps has virtually nothing to do with their Kenpo Karate skill level.

See my other post for more on this.

And if anyone wants any specifics, feel free to ask.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

If your instructor were to benefit from a lesson in giving private instruction, why would there not be similiar benefit by giving the instructor a lesson in group instruction?

I am a professional trainer of adult students. And I hope that I am always on alert for new methods and techniques that allow me to present information with more clarity. (This past week, I observed a colleague training ~ and I picked up several tips from her presentation style)

But, there are two sides to education ~ the teaching side and the learning side. Improving the presentation skills on the teaching side, I believe does not directly correlate to an improvement of kenpo skills on the learning side.

The student has to do the work.

Actually what you finished with "the student has to do the work" is NOT what is taught teachers. And, I will admit, when I was young and ignorant (from ages 18-44) I also thought that no matter what I was taught.

I was missing a couple of things.

1. How to motivate them.
2. How to find their criterias, both negative and positive.
3. How to make it fun for them.(I did NOT say easy)
4. How to give them pride of achievement.

Blab, blab, blab.

When YOU, the trainer, do YOUR job right, which means a lot more than knowing Lone Kimono, THEN the student will think of his lessons with as much enthusiasm as he considers good sex.

And, yes, I do agree totally that there are very important tools to teaching groups also.

Thank you for your nice post.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

However, in the teaching of physically interactive skills and mechanisms, (especially those that require subtle tactile absorbsion), my teacher always spoke of the necessity for what he called the "Three Person perspective" to fully maximize learning capability. Without the third person perspective absent in private lessons, at least a third of the learning experience is absent, and probably more.

Imagine in athletics trying to teach someone any physical contact sport. A student must not only participate in both sides of the physical equation, but he must be allowed to observe it being done correctly. Without the live third person perspective this isn't possible. The "Third Person Perspective extends itself not only to the student but the teacher as well.
.

This is very interesting, because you JUST DESCRIBED how I do my privates and how I've done them for years!

And you reasoning is based scientifically upon the three positions from NLP training.

At least that is where I learned it back in 1980.

Some are asking, "How does DOC get 3 students?" Easy. Here's an example.

Say a student has a 5 o'clock private. We allow the student at 4:30 to be Uke. And we allow the student at 5:30 to be Uke. We only need one Uke, but if two show up, we have then alternate.

So it's:
1. The actual student getting the lesson.
2. The Uke, who is a kinesthetic sounding board for the Tori.
3. And the Teacher, who gives the student the basic three's.

Thank you Dr. Ron.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

The more you put into it (martial art training)...the faster it becomes a part of you.

Pro's sports players,MMA, and other'snow...they have to practice everyday or practice harder and more often than others to become the BEST!

Tiger Woods is a good example of someone who is always on the course practicing constantly. Harder than most other pro's too!

ANYONE CAN GET BETTER! ...even 7X better than most people if they go all out on there practice and training, and more often too!.

Bruce Lee at one point was training his body over 8 hours a day...to become like Bruce Lee is to train like Bruce Lee or harder!

Very nice points.

I suggest that everyone here read the book by John Wooden.

It is great on training, great on winning, and even better on values, honesty and "doing your best no matter what".

Thank you.
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[tellner]

"Can" and "up to" are the foundations on which huge Potemkin villages are built. Especially since "up to" clearly includes the number zero.

Context is everything here.

1. There are some things which just require flight time. If you haven't put in the hours and worked those things out all the private instruction in the world won't help.
2. There are times when a student doesn't need the extra correction and personal attention. What he or she needs at the moment is practice with a wide variety of people to learn how to adapt the same material to different opponents. Like everything else there are cycles.
3. There are some people who just don't respond well to that style of instruction and others who thrive on it.
4. There's a point of diminishing returns with everything, even the best of instruction.
5. Without naming names, there are styles where private lessons are just as rote and standardized as the (assembly line) group classes. To justify the extra time expense the individual lesson has to be individualized. Otherwise it's just a shoddy way of extracting extra cash from the students.
6. The teacher has to be able to do that sort of teaching effectively. Very few MA teachers get any sort of instruction in how to teach let alone the differences in different sorts of classes.

 

[Yari]

I havn't read all the post, but skimed through it.

A saying I usally say: It takes 9 months to produce a baby.... no matter how many come with input, nurse it and recieve it.

You can part your MA into dirrefent groups:

1) Self Defence
2) Body movement/improvement
3) Self udnerstanding / philosophy / social understanding

Different areas take different times to be able to be proficient in. An each individual has his own 9 months to get there.

A coach/mentor/teacher is of great vaule, and can help, but it will take "9 months" for the individual to get to the point.

Regards
Yari

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I havn't read all the post, but skimed through it.

A saying I usally say: It takes 9 months to produce a baby.... no matter how many come with input, nurse it and recieve it.

Sorry,

Your metaphor is NOT isomorphic to the topic.

And NEITHER is it accurate.

It is your opinion based upon lack of data, both in teaching and in giving birth.

My last grandchild was born 6+ weeks early, somewhere around 7 to 7 1/2 months. NOT at 9 months.

My first child was born at 11 months and 1 week, give or take a day. NOT at 9 months.

So they were born approximately 4 months apart from each other, which is a reality that just does not fit your opinion, your generalization or your metaphor.

Private training under a competant trainer does have it's place for accelerated learning of the martial arts.

Now I really don't give a rat's *** if anyone else cares about those tremendous possibilites you can give your students over the old, worn-out, and old-fashioned 2 1/2 sweat shops.

If you choose not to learn how to teach private lesson in an effective way, I DON'T CARE and neither does anyone else UNLESS they are your boss, then they'll fire you if they've studied the potentials time wise, marketing wise, the psychological reasons and accelerated learning wise.

We all hopefully live by what we have determined the way it is we want to live.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Kacey]

[playnice]Karen Cohn[/playnice]