Leading arm jam back arm

[Kung Fu Wang]

How to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm is an important MA concept. If you can use 1 arm to control both of your opponent's arms, you will have 1 free arm to attack him.

What's your opinion on this?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is another video for the same principle.

 

[geezer]

How to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm is an important MA concept. If you can use 1 arm to control both of your opponent's arms, you will have 1 free arm to attack him. What's your opinion on this?

In the first clip, I'm seeing large circular movements that emphasize defense and trapping before offense. That's putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

In my own experience (in Wing Chun) trying to lead with this kind of complex, defensive strategy and then somehow attempting a trap puts you at a huge disadvantage when engaging with someone who emphasizes an aggressive offense.

The Wing Chun (and I assume the JKD) approach is typically to attack, as simply and efficiently as possible. Defense, if necessary, happens simultaneously with the offense. And yes, a good attack with good positioning will sometimes create a momentary "trap" allowing you to press the attack further. "Traps" as such, are never the goal in themselves!

Coming from this perspective, the second clip was even more painful to watch. I survived viewing it for about one minute and a half and then bailed. Check out the sequence from about 1:18 to 1:34, what he calls a "super advanced technique". IMO this is ....well to be kind, a really really bad approach ...again from my perspective

 

[geezer]

Any JKD guys want to weigh in here?

 

[geezer]

OK...I just went back and watched the rest of that so-called "Super Advanced JKD" video. It got way more interesting ....and pretty damn funny! "I told you not to hit me."

I may make it required viewing for my (remaining 2 or 3) students.

 

[drop bear]

In the first clip, I'm seeing large circular movements that emphasize defense and trapping before offense. That's putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

In my own experience (in Wing Chun) trying to lead with this kind of complex, defensive strategy and then somehow attempting a trap puts you at a huge disadvantage when engaging with someone who emphasizes an aggressive offense.

The Wing Chun (and I assume the JKD) approach is typically to attack, as simply and efficiently as possible. Defense, if necessary, happens simultaneously with the offense. And yes, a good attack with good positioning will sometimes create a momentary "trap" allowing you to press the attack further. "Traps" as such, are never the goal in themselves!

Coming from this perspective, the second clip was even more painful to watch. I survived viewing it for about one minute and a half and then bailed. Check out the sequence from about 1:18 to 1:34, what he calls a "super advanced technique". IMO this is ....well to be kind, a really really bad approach ...again from my perspective

From directly in front at arms length. So if anything goes wrong you get popped.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the first clip, I'm seeing large circular movements that emphasize defense and trapping before offense. That's putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

Agree! It should not be a defense strategy. It should be an offense strategy instead.

I don't like a video that my opponent punches and I block his punch. I like a video that I attack, my opponent blocks my punch, I then ... This way, the timing is on my side.

In another thread, I said that I don't like to run away from my opponent. I like to let my opponent to run away from me. It's not a tough guy attitude. Instead of letting my opponent to attack me, I prefer to attack my opponent.

I won't use this principle to deal with my opponent's punch. A punch can be so fast that timing is too important.

I may use my punch to set up an arm trap. In other words, I need to attack first.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My Thoughts

How to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm is an important MA concept. If you can use 1 arm to control both of your opponent's arms, you will have 1 free arm to attack him.

What's your opinion on this?

This is where there is a big disconnect between demo of concept and application of concept.

The first video will fail against a striker and it makes more sense as a grappling technique. I've done similar circular movements against my mma sparring partner. No problem. It's reliable. I would use it as a defense against a punch. There are just too many points of failure.

The second one is a complete failure. If anyone wants to try it, then I recommend trying it while inside the punching tange of the striker. Trying to control a punch at the end of a punch in not realistic.

All of my techniques that intercept a punch requires that I move forward as I make contact with the forearm so that his returning arm cannot escape my contact.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The first video will fail against a striker and it makes more sense as a grappling technique.

For some unknown reason, people may believe it's more proper to

- block his opponent's punch instead of to punch his opponent.
- run away from his opponent instead of to let his opponent to run away from him.

Almost all my video show that I attack first.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Coming from this perspective, the second clip was even more painful to watch. I survived viewing it for about one minute and a half and then bailed. Check out the sequence from about 1:18 to 1:34, what he calls a "super advanced technique". IMO this is ....well to be kind, a really really bad approach ...again from my perspective

I strongly suspected from the outset that the 2nd video was intended as a joke. As the video progressed it became increasingly clear that I was correct. It's intended as a satire of the overly complicated, impractical trapping sequences taught in some schools.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

How to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm is an important MA concept. If you can use 1 arm to control both of your opponent's arms, you will have 1 free arm to attack him.

What's your opinion on this?

The concept is valid and can often be useful. The application as shown in this video is ... highly unlikely to work against anyone who has even the vaguest idea of what they are doing in a fight. It requires the opponent to

1. Throw a punch and then leave the arm fully extended even after it has been deflected.
2. Throw a second punch while the first arm is still fully extended.
3. Leave the second arm fully extended after punching, even after it has been deflected.
4. Allow both arms to be manipulated through a wide range of motion without resistance or attempting to withdraw them.

If you have an opponent who is that incompetent, you can do pretty much anything you want to them.

Here is another video for the same principle.

This video is a satire intended to show the flaws in fancy trapping sequences as taught in some schools. The presenter telegraphs his intent early on by throwing in a number of incorrect instructions and then proceeds to demonstrate the techniques falling apart as soon as his partner stops complying.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. Throw a second punch while the first arm is still fully extended.

This part is not necessary. When you push your opponent's leading arm across his body, his back hand cannot reach you. You have already achieved the purpose of jamming.

 

[Holmejr]

Agree! It should not be a defense strategy. It should be an offense strategy instead.

I don't like a video that my opponent punches and I block his punch. I like a video that I attack, my opponent blocks my punch, I then ... This way, the timing is on my side.

In another thread, I said that I don't like to run away from my opponent. I like to let my opponent to run away from me. It's not a tough guy attitude. Instead of letting my opponent to attack me, I prefer to attack my opponent.

I won't use this principle to deal with my opponent's punch. A punch can be so fast that timing is too important.

I may use my punch to set up an arm trap. In other words, I need to attack first.

Some of these videos you post are really amusing. I did a multi year JKD stint starting with D Inosanto and ending with Ted LucayLucay. Although I was mainly after the FMA, Ted’s modified WC was super. Direct and forceful. The guy could really jerk the crap out of you. Not at all like your posted vids.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is a difference between "jam" and "press". Leading arm Jam back arm is easier. Leading arm press back arm is much harder. So far all the videos show "press".

Here is an example of jam. As long as you can push your opponent's leading arm across his body, you have achieved the goal of jamming (your opponent's back arm cannot hit you).

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is a difference between "jam" and "press". Leading arm Jam back arm is easier. Leading arm press back arm is much harder. So far all the videos show "press".

Here is an example of jam. As long as you can push your opponent's leading arm across his body, you have achieved the goal of jamming (your opponent's back arm cannot hit you).

When I jam a punching arm, I'm not trying to jam the punch. I'm actually trying to jam the arm before it punches. More specifically, I'm trying to jam the arm before the punch can fully extend. This requires a few things to happen.

1. I have to attack the leading arm with the goal of interrupting a punch vs waiting for one to come at me.
2. I have to be able to advance (move forward) enough that if I screw up the timing, that I will be close enough to my opponent that the punch will not be able to land with full force.

Kung Fu Wang. Thank you for the first clip. That first clip shows a technique that is found in Jow Ga. For us we actually push the arm upwards at an angle and across the body. The technique can be used to attack or as a counter. In Jow Ga this would be considered a Joint Attack or a Redirect.

I think the reason your clip shows that the technique is done horizontally, is because it's done with a "grappling only mindset" In striking, that same horizontal push will load a horizontal elbow strike. Ideally, in striking we want to turn the body or hyper extend the elbow. In all cases the elbow is key to this type control. If my opponent is a tense fighter then I can control by only using his/her forearm. I would only use forearm control if they are a tense fighter, since a relaxed fighter could easily counter forearm control. Forearm control works best against brawlers, because brawlers wants to muscle through everything. Brawlers want to dominate by overpowering their opponents with force which makes it easier to turn them without using elbow control.

Relaxed fighters are the opposite, pushing on them often leads to emptiness so elbow controls becomes critical. The first clip that you show can be a nasty technique. I had it applied to me like that, after throwing a jab. He struck my elbow which caused it to hyper-extend. The upper motion +plus my arm going across my body + pain in my elbow made it impossible for me to initiate any counter.

I will share that first clip with a Sifu I know. I think he will appreciate seeing the same technique used in other systems.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I jam a punching arm, I'm not trying to jam the punch. I'm actually trying to jam the arm before it punches. More specifically, I'm trying to jam the arm before the punch can fully extend. This requires a few things to happen.

1. I have to attack the leading arm with the goal of interrupting a punch vs waiting for one to come at me.
2. I have to be able to advance (move forward) enough that if I screw up the timing, that I will be close enough to my opponent that the punch will not be able to land with full force.

Kung Fu Wang. Thank you for the first clip. That first clip shows a technique that is found in Jow Ga. For us we actually push the arm upwards at an angle and across the body. The technique can be used to attack or as a counter. In Jow Ga this would be considered a Joint Attack or a Redirect.

I think the reason your clip shows that the technique is done horizontally, is because it's done with a "grappling only mindset" In striking, that same horizontal push will load a horizontal elbow strike. Ideally, in striking we want to turn the body or hyper extend the elbow. In all cases the elbow is key to this type control. If my opponent is a tense fighter then I can control by only using his/her forearm. I would only use forearm control if they are a tense fighter, since a relaxed fighter could easily counter forearm control. Forearm control works best against brawlers, because brawlers wants to muscle through everything. Brawlers want to dominate by overpowering their opponents with force which makes it easier to turn them without using elbow control.

Relaxed fighters are the opposite, pushing on them often leads to emptiness so elbow controls becomes critical. The first clip that you show can be a nasty technique. I had it applied to me like that, after throwing a jab. He struck my elbow which caused it to hyper-extend. The upper motion +plus my arm going across my body + pain in my elbow made it impossible for me to initiate any counter.

I will share that first clip with a Sifu I know. I think he will appreciate seeing the same technique used in other systems.

Taking a look at the clip from the first video. It looks like the student didn't give the teacher a good set up for that technique. The student's lead arm isn't position the way it would if he was actually trying to grapple with someone. His arm was already across his body instead of his hand facing towards his opponent as if he was getting ready to seize the teacher by reaching for him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When your opponent tries to reach out to you then, the Technique that Kung Fu Wang showed can be used, but it has to be done before the grab occurs. The mindset for this technique is an offensive one. Even when used as a defense. You have to attack even as a defense with this technique.

https://i.postimg.cc/PqCv2ZwD/Lin-arm-guide-slow.gif

This can be done against a punch but requires a lot of speed for it. Even more speed to apply it against an incoming punch. Time it wrong and you'll eat that punch. Because of that the safest route is to apply it as a grappling technique when someone reaches out to grab you. This way their arms stays extended for a longer period than a jab.

The best option for the clib above would be to simply push the elbow across the body

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Here is another video for the same principle.

That’s just awful, my granny can scrap better than that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The mindset for this technique is an offensive one.

This is important. You don't use this principle when your opponent punches you. You use it when your opponent is on guard.

Here is another example.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is important. You don't use this principle when your opponent punches you. You use it when your opponent is on guard.

Here is another example.

I understand the concept, I just don’t think it’s very special. Maybe some people can develop proficiency with it, but I don’t see that in these videos.