Larry Tatum in the magazines

[James Kovacich]

Ah. So if you're arguing that what you saw in somebody else's picture is unrealistic, and part of the response is that some of what one saw in your pictures is unrealistic, your answer is that you always keep the real deep stuff out of your pictures.

You're an OK guy.

I'm not in the publics eye. For the most part I have time on my side to express myself. I do agree with more of your stuff than you think.

 

[Karazenpo]

Robert, I am not 'claiming' a type of street knowledge, I would think that by now I would have something to offer with nearly three decades as an LEO. I do not think I'm the only deal in town for there are many on this forum who are either LEO's or have backgrounds in reality fighting, some have worked in bars, security or perhaps the bodyguard business and let's not forgot those military veterans of 'Special Ops'. My pet peeve in the martial arts, however, is this: being lectured by those who don't have a clue how their 'stuff' would work in reality. It's like a Sgt. in wartime who leads his men through two tours of duty and got them through alive and then some Lt., wet behind the ears, comes out of West Point and he's put in charge. The reality is the Lt. takes a back seat to the Sgt. in the field, ask any combat veteran, because he is the man the men trust and believe in, he's proved himself. As you stated earlier about 'angry attackers' that you were an 'angry attacker' in a demo or two and it really didn't help against one of your instructors. Well, Robert, of course not because the 'uke' always gets beat up! Just like the bad guys in the movies. That statement alone makes one second guess you.

Perhaps you know this or perhaps you don't, but check this out if you like. Mr. Parker loved teaching police offciers during the formation of AK. They would act an an extension of himself and report back to him what worked and what didn't work, some things were kept, some modified and some thrown out. After all, he couldn't go test his stuff himself by looking for fights and what better way to get a handle on things then to go to the guys that deal with the same people that would attack you or mug you. No special pleading here, it just happens to be the way it is, like it or not.

You also stated you think I feel nobody elses experience counts! Well, bad assumption on your part and you know what they say about assumptions! If you read my posts in the past you will see that in an attempt to gather more information in reality fighting I have informally interviewed violent offenders that I have come in contact with over the years to pick their brains, from 'sucker punchers' to 'murders', no embellishment here, I could name names if I had too. What better way to find out how they attack, what they actually do, their strategy, their favorite techniques, how they use a knife, etc, etc. So, Robert, I totally respect what everyone has to bring to the table when it comes to my self improvement as a police officer and a teacher, even the criminals!

As far as cliches some of us use go, we've had this discussion before, c'ome on now, look at all the literary b.s. you write! Gimme a break, will ya! Gary stated you seem to very very, very narrow minded. I don't think any of us ever heard you use the term 'I stand corrected', 'I was mistaken or wrong', yet many of us have conceded in the past and accepted it if we felt the other debater made a valid point. Respect Robert? Look at one of your recent posts; How did it start? Something like 'Okay kids'....kids Robert? Very condescending, ya think? You know what kids say? They say my instructor is better then your instructor, my style is better than your style, my instructor never misses, my instructor is the 'only deal in town', blah, blah, blah...that's what kids say. How about the assumption on Jim's abilities, someone you don't even know. Was that fair and respectful?

You vented and I vented and I hope once and for all we can put this b.s. behind us and have informative discussions in a friendly atmosphere. I sincerely mean that. Take care, "Joe"

 

[TChase]

Robert, I am not 'claiming' a type of street knowledge, I would think that by now I would have something to offer with nearly three decades as an LEO. I do not think I'm the only deal in town for there are many on this forum who are either LEO's or have backgrounds in reality fighting, some have worked in bars, security or perhaps the bodyguard business and let's not forgot those military veterans of 'Special Ops'. My pet peeve in the martial arts, however, is this: being lectured by those who don't have a clue how their 'stuff' would work in reality. It's like a Sgt. in wartime who leads his men through two tours of duty and got them through alive and then some Lt., wet behind the ears, comes out of West Point and he's put in charge. The reality is the Lt. takes a back seat to the Sgt. in the field, ask any combat veteran, because he is the man the men trust and believe in, he's proved himself. As you stated earlier about 'angry attackers' that you were an 'angry attacker' in a demo or two and it really didn't help against one of your instructors. Well, Robert, of course not because the 'uke' always gets beat up! Just like the bad guys in the movies. That statement alone makes one second guess you.

Perhaps you know this or perhaps you don't, but check this out if you like. Mr. Parker loved teaching police offciers during the formation of AK. They would act an an extension of himself and report back to him what worked and what didn't work, some things were kept, some modified and some thrown out. After all, he couldn't go test his stuff himself by looking for fights and what better way to get a handle on things then to go to the guys that deal with the same people that would attack you or mug you. No special pleading here, it just happens to be the way it is, like it or not.

You also stated you think I feel nobody elses experience counts! Well, bad assumption on your part and you know what they say about assumptions! If you read my posts in the past you will see that in an attempt to gather more information in reality fighting I have informally interviewed violent offenders that I have come in contact with over the years to pick their brains, from 'sucker punchers' to 'murders', no embellishment here, I could name names if I had too. What better way to find out how they attack, what they actually do, their strategy, their favorite techniques, how they use a knife, etc, etc. So, Robert, I totally respect what everyone has to bring to the table when it comes to my self improvement as a police officer and a teacher, even the criminals!

Excellent post Joe! You pretty much summed up the reasons I joined the UKF and why I continue to follow Mr. Picks teachings.

 

[Danjo]

A couple of good points. I in no way doubt Larry's skill. I doubt the demonstrated techniques. I more than doubt, I know. I also know that if the technique being demonstrated is only good for those who are as highly skilled as Larry, then the technique is useless to 99.99% of the worlds population.

Exactly right. Unless it can be transmitted effectively to the average student, then it's only good for show. I love watching Cirqu de Solei, but there's no way I would ever attempt that. If one of those guys tried to teach that stuff as a practical exercise for the masses, they'd be laughed at. (Not that what Tatum does is the equivalent of what those guys can do, but you get the point.) BTW, how many eyes etc. has Larry Tatum had to pluck out under real conditions before?

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Well, "Danjo," I don't know. I think ten or eleven, but I'll ask later this afternoon. And yourself?

2. Yep, pretty much what I thought you'd say, Joe. I actually argued that there were a lot of different elephants to see, and suggested that while being a cop certainly gives you lots of honorable experience I don't have, I didn't exactly just fall off the sugar beet truck last night either. Not only does claiming experience that others supposedly don't have remain special pleading, but you might find myself and others a lot more receptive if...oh, never mind. What's the use? You've decided about somebody you've never met, and nothing I could possibly write would cause you to sit down and think that through.

3. Or to put all this another way, I'm acutely aware of my limitations. Are you?

 

[Danjo]

1. Well, "Danjo," I don't know. I think ten or eleven, but I'll ask later this afternoon. And yourself?

The answer is none for me. But then...I'm not making that claim for myself. Nor would I claim to be able to pick a fly out of the air with chopsticks. You, on the other hand, are making a direct claim that Tatum could get that eye no matter what. Hence, me asking his "batting average on eyeballs."

 

[Karazenpo]

1. Well, "Danjo," I don't know. I think ten or eleven, but I'll ask later this afternoon. And yourself?

2. Yep, pretty much what I thought you'd say, Joe. I actually argued that there were a lot of different elephants to see, and suggested that while being a cop certainly gives you lots of honorable experience I don't have, I didn't exactly just fall off the sugar beet truck last night either. Not only does claiming experience that others supposedly don't have remain special pleading, but you might find myself and others a lot more receptive if...oh, never mind. What's the use? You've decided about somebody you've never met, and nothing I could possibly write would cause you to sit down and think that through.

3. Or to put all this another way, I'm acutely aware of my limitations. Are you?

Hi Robert. First, I thought you were through with this topic. Second, yes I am aware of your limitations, to quote Inspector Harry Callahan (Dirty Harry): "You're a good man and a good man always knows his limitations'. Just teasing Robert, we all have limitations for it's part of the human condition. Third, yep, pretty much you being a little hypocritical commenting on me using 'cliches' Robert for what is this quote from you I just read on another topic?: "Good poets borrow. Great ones steal." Shakespeare was a great thief. It's all bricolage. 'Cliche' I think! No Robert, I don't think you just fell off the turnip truck and I do think through what you write and if you go back on other topics you'll see I've validated your viewpoints on certain issues. Look, I'm extending the olive branch, if I have seemed in the past to have got on your case a little it's because sometimes you do come off condescending and I don't mean just to me but to other posters too. Maybe that's just your way and you don't mean anything by it but that's how I and others took it. And hey, before I became a cop, I went to college to be a high school history teacher, go figure, lol. Peace brother, Sincerely "Joe"

 

[Michael Billings]

Gentlemen,

I realize that there is an attempt being made here to remain civil. Please watch the sarcasm and keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-

 

[Kenpohermit]

While one way of dealing with multiple opponents is to line them up or place the one your dominating in front of the other attacker or to step-pivot-turn to face the same direction one of the attackers is facing while dealing with them so that you can see the attacker that is comming from behind. There is a lot of assumption that this placement can always be acheived. Further more it is not always what you want to do. Specially in the case of being in a hurry for example you really would like to get to your cousin who is being stomped by someone but 2 attackers are trying to do the same thing to you, You could play the get them in each other's way game or you could just move in on them so they are nearly the same distance apart then you can deal with both of them at the same time which is faster. Granted it would take more skill to do so effectively.

The other thing is that while your dealing with one opponent you catch the other in the corner of your eye comming from behind of course if you study American Kenpo you were probably already aware what friends this guy had in the room. So while you were in the middle of your sequential explosion you simply expand a little, perhaps with an eye strike to obscure the leg you have at the same time placed between there legs now if you hit the eye or they flinch back helping to expose that groin either way your set up works just fine. Then you have that concept about the Universal Pattern expanded that can be placed on top of your body (like in Infinite Insights Volume 4) to show you the various paths your strikes can travel now if the opponents have come into range of one of those paths you can launch a single weapon along that path and nail both of them. While I did not see the pictures that you folks have talked about but I have seen pictures of Mr. Tatum dealing with multiple opponents he had them all under control the fact that he was using his upper body and his lower body to deal with multiple opponent bodies at the same time just made it all the more effective in terms of not standing around trying to defend but rather going on the offense before the attackers even get a chance to attack (as it should be) What I am saying is I dont think its impractical at all.

And now this part is debatable but in my opinion with American Kenpo's speed and multiple striking combinations and aggressive attitude, dealing effectively with 2 opponents at the same time is a very possible reality. Specially for someone past the brown belt level.

Respectfully
Sami

 

[BlackCatBonz]

you can pontificate the virtues of multiple opponent defenses til you're blue in the face. the simple fact is.....it's never cut and dry.
you can have the flashiest hand movements and the explosiveness of a nuclear warhead, but in the end its all position, position, position and the ability to move in an unpredictable manner that confuses your opponents senses.

 

[Karazenpo]

you can pontificate the virtues of multiple opponent defenses til you're blue in the face. the simple fact is.....it's never cut and dry.
you can have the flashiest hand movements and the explosiveness of a nuclear warhead, but in the end its all position, position, position and the ability to move in an unpredictable manner that confuses your opponents senses.

I like that, Shawn. I tend to agree. "Position", a very good point!

 

[Kenpohermit]

I didnt mean to make it sound "cut and dry"
You talk about position and confusing your opponents.
I can agree both would be nice if it were so "cut and dry"
but like you point out, it is not cut and dry...

If you are able to move to such a great position all the time while
confusing your opponents thats great but then we have the
situations were gaining "position" may not be possible in the moment,
so which one of us is really making it sound cut and dry the one that
is telling you things dont always go as we like so we should know how to
deal in other situations or the one who sums up all multiple opponent situations as a matter of position and confusing opponents. Well here is a thought now that they are confused and your in a great postion, when do you get around to stopping them and possibly saving the life of a friend of yours? (versus simply position, confuse and escape)

Respectfully
Sami

PS: I would like to share idea's with you not argue tell I am blue in the face so I apologize in advance if it seems like I am trying to argue with you.

 

[The Kai]

The problem is if you have the time to move,or act to confuse opponent, it is to much time and movement.

Position is critical but sometimes you do get stuck twitx a rock and a hard place!

 

[Karazenpo]

The problem is if you have the time to move,or act to confuse opponent, it is to much time and movement.

Position is critical but sometimes you do get stuck twitx a rock and a hard place!

Can't argue that point either, Todd. Sometimes we have to fend from the position we're stuck in! Very true.

 

[Seabrook]

The answer is none for me. But then...I'm not making that claim for myself. Nor would I claim to be able to pick a fly out of the air with chopsticks. You, on the other hand, are making a direct claim that Tatum could get that eye no matter what. Hence, me asking his "batting average on eyeballs."

Danjo,

Why in the world are you arguing with Robert about this? Larry Tatum is Kenpo's finest and the point Robert was making, was yes, Larry Tatum is master craftsman at the art, and it wouldn't take him long to catch those eyes with his speed and accuracy. Could he get to them 10 times out of 10? Who knows, but I wouldn't want to find out or volunteer.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[GAB]

Danjo,

Why in the world are you arguing with Robert about this? Larry Tatum is Kenpo's finest and the point Robert was making, was yes, Larry Tatum is master craftsman at the art, and it wouldn't take him long to catch those eyes with his speed and accuracy. Could he get to them 10 times out of 10? Who knows, but I wouldn't want to find out or volunteer.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Hi,

Yes, is that not the truth...

I was just talking about him with a fellow Martial Artist, about who could lead the way for the man on top of the hill regarding EPAK...(because reading your book)...

GM Tatum's name is very high on the list...He went forth and tamed the OX.

Jamie,

I want to thank you for writing the book I am reading at present, good information...I believe it is something that will help all who like Martial Arts and especially for the EPAK people...Reminds me of a See's candy sampler, good stuff for your "Craftsman toolbox"...

Regards, Gary

 

[James Kovacich]

The responses are coming in the way I hoped. Thanx.

I still have a hard time "comsuming" that eyejab. His left foot is forward and left arm reaches across his chest to eyejab the oncoming rear attacker.

The only way I think that could be used is if that was my only option.

I think he should stepped 1 step to the right with his right foot and tossed his frontal attacker into the rear attacker. He already launched a successful attack on the frontal attacker and his left arm would of been of better use and more effective assissting his right arm (which was nearly in place already) with the toss.

 

[Seabrook]

Jamie,

I want to thank you for writing the book I am reading at present, good information...I believe it is something that will help all who like Martial Arts and especially for the EPAK people...Reminds me of a See's candy sampler, good stuff for your "Craftsman toolbox"...

Regards, Gary

Thanks Gary....looking forward to your feedback upon completion.

Cheers,
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

The responses are coming in the way I hoped. Thanx.

I still have a hard time "comsuming" that eyejab. His left foot is forward and left arm reaches across his chest to eyejab the oncoming rear attacker.

The only way I think that could be used is if that was my only option.

I think he should stepped 1 step to the right with his right foot and tossed his frontal attacker into the rear attacker. He already launched a successful attack on the frontal attacker and his left arm would of been of better use and more effective assissting his right arm (which was nearly in place already) with the toss.

I haven't see the article yet but I will take a look the next couple of days when I hit our local Chapters Bookstore.

The one thing I can say - it's a lot easier to criticize magazine photos than it is to see him move in person. I know I have posed for technique photos before and when I have seen the finished product, I thought - shoot, I could have made that look a lot better than it did.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[rmcrobertson]

The critique advanced would be equally well applied to the claim that, "he should have tossed his front opponent into the rear opponent."

1. What's the rear attacker doing while all this tossing's going on? Having a soda?

2. I should like to see a guy I work out with who is 6' 9," extremely athletic, and quite advanced in kenpo, blithely "tossed," to the rear.

My point, in other words, is that the claim of, "more realism," simply reflects a different set of philosophies, NOT simply the way things must be. In fact, the specific option discussed here is far less realistic that the basic kenpo approach of going after both guys pretty much simultaneously, then reassessing the situation.