Lack of Universal Nomenclature

[granfire]

Manny's posts inspired this thought:

Well, I am a forum junky, somewhat in remission atm (the story I am sticking to, WoW be thanked)

I do frequent other Martial Arts related forums from time to time and it has always hit me that we have no universal name for the techniques developed. Of course every kick has many variations, but when you talk to people who do not share the same base language (english) as native tongue you do end up with a lot of confusion at times.

I have to admit, I can't get into Korean. After a handful of terms my eyes glaze over, or after the 3rd Kim in the history of our base art...I am lost.


However, when a 'Terminus Technicus' is established communication seems to go much smoother. Not sure why TKD has lost that connection.


True, there is the fact that a lot of people have tin ears when it comes to language other than their own, and over time the terms become corrupted into incomprehensible caricatures of their meanings, but it would aid the exchange of ideas between the branches of TKD.

 

[puunui]

I think the KMA have enough similarity of terms to be able to communicate. Everyone knows what a front, side or roundhouse kick is, for example. And even when we do not use the same terms, generally they are descriptive enough that we get the idea. I know what a turning kick is, for example and somewhat understand what a side piercing kick is supposed to do, even though I am not an ITF practitioner.

 

[granfire]

I think the KMA have enough similarity of terms to be able to communicate. Everyone knows what a front, side or roundhouse kick is, for example. And even when we do not use the same terms, generally they are descriptive enough that we get the idea. I know what a turning kick is, for example and somewhat understand what a side piercing kick is supposed to do, even though I am not an ITF practitioner.

Well, you missed the basic point: Not everybody is fluent in English.
So a turning kick or round house or whatever (bad example in this) could be confusing.

Why moving away from the base language?
Or is that because there is more than one?

 

[dancingalone]

Different fields require different terminology. A computer scientist has specialized words that mean little to people outside his area.

Likewise, I see the same specialization in TKD. WTF sparring seems to be full of jargon like cut kicks, bada kicks, etc. Meanwhile, the ITF has their distinct classifications of the different side kicks in their system.

True, it can be confusing for people in different factions to communicate given the gulf in common terminology, but isn't this as it should be if we ultimately are congregating to separate areas of TKD?

 

[puunui]

Well, you missed the basic point: Not everybody is fluent in English.

I believe the base language of the WTF is now english, according to the bylaws. Seems like english is becoming the universal language at least in Kukki Taekwondo. I think one of the reasons why the new Chung Do Kwan Jang was chosen was because he is fluent in english and other languages.

 

[puunui]

True, it can be confusing for people in different factions to communicate given the gulf in common terminology, but isn't this as it should be if we ultimately are congregating to separate areas of TKD?

I think that we are congregating towards more universal acceptance of Kukkiwon as the standard. More and more each day get brought in and are converting over. I think this is especially true of ITF styles because the younger generation will not have that direct connection to General Choi and therefore will have less of a sympathetic or empathetic reason to continue with the Chang Hon forms as time goes on. I know it is true in my state specifically. Fifteen or twenty years ago, we had all of the different forms represented, including a little ATA at our tournaments. Now all that is left is one small school who continue to do the Palgwae poomsae, which the head instructor had just converted to about ten years ago, crossing over from the Chang Hon tul. I think the only person who is teaching the ITF tul here is one instructor on Maui, and I am not sure if he still lives in the islands.

 

[dancingalone]

Maybe so.

Regardless, in my area, ATA continues to rule the day and I just don't see them folding into KKW any time soon, any negotiations the late H.U. Lee had notwithstanding. And they have their own unique vocabulary and cultural norms (#1, #2, etc sidekick, recommended belts, Songahm symbolism) they're very fond of.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think the only person who is teaching the ITF tul here is one instructor on Maui, and I am not sure if he still lives in the islands.

As far as I know, Randy Casco is still teaching in Lahaina.
http://www.co.maui.hi.us/BusinessDirectoryII.aspx?BID=85

 

[puunui]

As far as I know, Randy Casco is still teaching in Lahaina.
http://www.co.maui.hi.us/BusinessDirectoryII.aspx?BID=85

I believe I invited him to our stuff but he never responded and never showed up to anything. He pretty much keeps to himself. Which organization is he with now, do you know?

 

[granfire]

Maybe so.

Regardless, in my area, ATA continues to rule the day and I just don't see them folding into KKW any time soon, any negotiations the late H.U. Lee had notwithstanding. And they have their own unique vocabulary and cultural norms (#1, #2, etc sidekick, recommended belts, Songahm symbolism) they're very fond of.

That is part of the problem. I mean, I do kind of like the #1, 2 things, because if you kow what it means it's easy...but it's foreign to almost everybody else. (My club was an ATA off shoot, so we have the #! thing, as well)

 

[chrispillertkd]

Why moving away from the base language?

The most common reason I've heard that people in the U.S. don't use Korean more for terminology is that "we're Americans not Koreans." The strength of this reasoning can be judged by each person as they wish. Personally, I find it rather weak. You could just as easily say "we're Americans, we don't fight like Koreans."

As far as the ITF is concerned, both Korean and English enjoy a certain pride of place. One can address the ITF Congress in their native tongue, whatever it happens to be, and translations are made into English, French, German, Korean and Spanish. Korean is used for technical terminology. Rules, regulations, official minutes, etc. are to be in both English and Korean. If there is a disagreement about the translation of an official text, however, it is the English version that is accepted.

Since Gen. Choi envisioned Taekwon-Do as being an international martial art very early on it is perhaps understandable that English, which is the modern lingua franca, is used for offical communique. It's an easy way to have the greatest number of people have the greatest understanding of information. The preservation of Korean for technical terminology is a cultural touchstone, much like the definitions of the tul and the etiquette that is used during and outside of training.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Regardless, in my area, ATA continues to rule the day and I just don't see them folding into KKW any time soon, any negotiations the late H.U. Lee had notwithstanding. And they have their own unique vocabulary and cultural norms (#1, #2, etc sidekick, recommended belts, Songahm symbolism) they're very fond of.

I don't know about that. There are about a group of 5000 former ATA dan holders who are as we speak are enthusiastically preparing to completely switch to Kukki Taekwondo.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know about that. There are about a group of 5000 former ATA dan holders who are as we speak are enthusiastically preparing to completely switch to Kukki Taekwondo.

Former? Are they a disaffected group or a contingent of currently active ATA members?

It would be 'big' news if one of the current council members and their schools were converting to KKW.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Good thread. I must admit I get confused, some clubs do everything in korean, some everything is english and some are a combination of both. Our club counts in korean, sparring commands are in korean, and we do a little korean intro thing at the start of class. But, all our techniques are in english which is why I get confused when people use korean terminology for kicks. Age has a lot to do with it for me and perhaps others. As a kid I did karate and within 6 months I could virtually speak japanese because kids can just suck up new information and also as a kid I got into the whole 'tradition' thing. As an adult, I have done tkd for years and still struggle to count to 10, because my brain has too much going on with work, kids, mortgage etc to deal with learning new things. Also, as an adult, I train to keep fit and healthy and see it as a bit of a hobby and the whole language, lineage stuff just isnt as important to me.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I believe I invited him to our stuff but he never responded and never showed up to anything. He pretty much keeps to himself. Which organization is he with now, do you know?

As far as I know he is with the USTF.

 

[granfire]

Good thread. I must admit I get confused, some clubs do everything in korean, some everything is english and some are a combination of both. Our club counts in korean, sparring commands are in korean, and we do a little korean intro thing at the start of class. But, all our techniques are in english which is why I get confused when people use korean terminology for kicks. Age has a lot to do with it for me and perhaps others. As a kid I did karate and within 6 months I could virtually speak japanese because kids can just suck up new information and also as a kid I got into the whole 'tradition' thing. As an adult, I have done tkd for years and still struggle to count to 10, because my brain has too much going on with work, kids, mortgage etc to deal with learning new things. Also, as an adult, I train to keep fit and healthy and see it as a bit of a hobby and the whole language, lineage stuff just isnt as important to me.

LOL, the counting thing...it's a funny thing about that...

I am not a native english speaker
I like languages (but for some reason Korean evades me, completely)
I had no problems picking up a bit Japanese a couple of years ago (got lazy on it, no place to use it around here, though, I could try to get a job at the Honda plant )

I did manage to count to 10 in class in Japanese. But past that it takes too much concentration. I usually count in German.
I have seen a girl that was equally fluent in german and french but went to french school wait tables. She went from gabbing german with the customers to doing math in french in a split second :lfao: cracks me up every time!

 

[puunui]

some clubs do everything in korean, some everything is english and some are a combination of both. Our club counts in korean, sparring commands are in korean, and we do a little korean intro thing at the start of class. But, all our techniques are in english which is why I get confused when people use korean terminology for kicks.

By the way, whether someone teaches using Korean or non-Korean terminology isn't necessarily a Kukkiwon thing. Personally, most of my teachers in the US have taught using english terminology instead of Korean, with a few exceptions for particular techiniques or circumstances.

When Karate was brought from Okinawa to Japan by FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei, he changed the names of the kata to more Japan friendly terms, to make it easier for the Japanese to learn. There is a native Okinawan language which is different from the Japanese language. When the art moved to Korea, everything was taught in Korean. So it makes sense to use english terminology when teaching in America or other english speaking countries.

 

[Kacey]

The most common reason I've heard that people in the U.S. don't use Korean more for terminology is that "we're Americans not Koreans." The strength of this reasoning can be judged by each person as they wish. Personally, I find it rather weak. You could just as easily say "we're Americans, we don't fight like Koreans."

As far as the ITF is concerned, both Korean and English enjoy a certain pride of place. One can address the ITF Congress in their native tongue, whatever it happens to be, and translations are made into English, French, German, Korean and Spanish. Korean is used for technical terminology. Rules, regulations, official minutes, etc. are to be in both English and Korean. If there is a disagreement about the translation of an official text, however, it is the English version that is accepted.

Since Gen. Choi envisioned Taekwon-Do as being an international martial art very early on it is perhaps understandable that English, which is the modern lingua franca, is used for offical communique. It's an easy way to have the greatest number of people have the greatest understanding of information. The preservation of Korean for technical terminology is a cultural touchstone, much like the definitions of the tul and the etiquette that is used during and outside of training.

Pax,

Chris

In addition, a reasonable number of USTF/ITF practitioners compete at international events - if everyone understands a core vocabulary of technical terms used in sparring, patterns, and breaking, it helps considerably with communication in and out of the ring, at least as it relates to actual competition.

When competing with people who don't know Korean, it also gives an advantage to coaches and students who do know Korean, as the coach can coach his/her student without giving anything away to the opponent.