Kyusho-Jitsu

[firelake]

Does anyone have opinions on Kyusho-Jitsu which seems to focus on pressure points on the human body?

This video is an example of what I'm talking about:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

1. There are spots on the human body where a forceful blow will produce a significantly greater effect than the equivalent blow elsewhere. Any decent striking art should include knowledge of these targets.
2. There are spots on the body where a strike or concentrated pressure can produce significant discomfort. It's worth being familiar with these, but there is a large amount of variation among individuals. Back when I was studying these sort of nerve point attacks I was once able to drop a muscular 200 pound guy while demonstrating fairly light pressure. Later on I tried demonstrating the exact same technique on a 120 pound woman and she shrugged it off even when I applied full force. More importantly, pain compliance techniques like these which feel nasty in a relaxed training environment will often be completely ignored in a real fight once emotions are running high. Adrenaline is a potent pain killer.
3. The sort of stuff shown in videos like the one you posted, where the demonstrator lightly taps someone who then keels over like they've just been touched by the Holy Ghost through a faith healer, are complete bunk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

1. There are spots on the human body where a forceful blow will produce a significantly greater effect than the equivalent blow elsewhere. Any decent striking art should include knowledge of these targets.
2. There are spots on the body where a strike or concentrated pressure can produce significant discomfort. It's worth being familiar with these, but there is a large amount of variation among individuals. Back when I was studying these sort of nerve point attacks I was once able to drop a muscular 200 pound guy while demonstrating fairly light pressure. Later on I tried demonstrating the exact same technique on a 120 pound woman and she shrugged it off even when I applied full force. More importantly, pain compliance techniques like these which feel nasty in a relaxed training environment will often be completely ignored in a real fight once emotions are running high. Adrenaline is a potent pain killer.
3. The sort of stuff shown in videos like the one you posted, where the demonstrator lightly taps someone who then keels over like they've just been touched by the Holy Ghost through a faith healer, are complete bunk.

True on all points. To the OP: I could probably easily find a pressure point or two on you that would bring you to your knees in a quick demonstration, with little effort on my part. And with just a little Adrenalin in your system (fear, anger, etc.), you might not even notice them. Pressure points are nice additions to effective technique, but shouldn't be depended upon.

 

[hoshin1600]

the video you posted is of Evan Pantazi. i have met and worked with Evan along with several of the "masters" of kyusho kempo.. this is George Dillman linage stuff.
due to forum rules i will have no comment on this subject....take that for what it is.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

due to forum rules i will have no comment on this subject....take that for what it is.

For the sake of the OP, who is a newcomer to the forum, I'll point out that the forum rules hoshin1600 mentions are probably those against fraud-busting and style-bashing.

 

[JR 137]

We did a lot of pressure point stuff during my first stint in karate. Not like the light slaps in the video, but attacking arm points during grabs and while blocking, targeting areas on the torso, etc.

Before that, we used some pressure points when I wrestled in high school. We didn't call them pressure points, nor kyusho, but they were pressure points - during tie-ups, bury the edge/curved part of your forehead into the opponent's temple, push your chin into their biceps tendon, etc. They were effective.

Lightly tapping points or even hitting them harder than in the video doesn't work. Sorry, but it's not that easy. There's no free lunch when it comes to defending yourself.

I've also noticed something Tony said: women are far less sensitive to pressure points. I taught an intro to karate class at a college I used to work at. We used arm pressure points during grabs to make the techniques more effective. I'd hit people on those points (not too hard, but hard enough for them to know what it feels like and why to hit there). Women would not have any reaction on their face. Guys would would rub their arms afterward and most often say "that's messed up!" And it wasn't a large vs small person thing either - women who were larger were still not phased by it.

No idea why guys are more sensitive to it. I guess we're not as tough

 

[JR 137]

And yes, Pantazi is part of the George Dillman clan. This video says all you need to know about the Dillman clan, especially at the end when Dillman explains why it didn't work on a particular individual...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Like Gpseymour mentioned pressure points will work but are hard to rely on! They should be used in addition to effective technique.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Before that, we used some pressure points when I wrestled in high school. We didn't call them pressure points, nor kyusho, but they were pressure points - during tie-ups, bury the edge/curved part of your forehead into the opponent's temple, push your chin into their biceps tendon, etc. They were effective.

Exactly. I think the key is that you aren't relying on the pressure points to do anything magical. You're applying the pressure to control the opponent's body anyway - why not focus the pressure on a spot which makes it extra painful? If the individual happens not to be sensitive there it doesn't really matter. The pressure is doing it's job of control - the pain is just icing on the cake.

If they do react to the pain, usually the best you can hope for is that they:

• try to wiggle away from it and end up compromising their structure and giving you openings for attack
• get distracted by it and fail to see a different attack coming
• get mentally down by it and lose some of their fighting spirit later in the match

What you don't see if someone just collapsing and giving up right away (except sometimes with certain beginners who have never fought or wrestled or done anything athletic and who freak out the first time they encounter pain).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly. I think the key is that you aren't relying on the pressure points to do anything magical. You're applying the pressure to control the opponent's body anyway - why not focus the pressure on a spot which makes it extra painful? If the individual happens not to be sensitive there it doesn't really matter. The pressure is doing it's job of control - the pain is just icing on the cake.

If they do react to the pain, usually the best you can hope for is that they:

• try to wiggle away from it and end up compromising their structure and giving you openings for attack
• get distracted by it and fail to see a different attack coming
• get mentally down by it and lose some of their fighting spirit later in the match

What you don't see if someone just collapsing and giving up right away (except sometimes with certain beginners who have never fought or wrestled or done anything athletic and who freak out the first time they encounter pain).

Agreed. Now, in a demonstration, most of us will react largely to a well-done pressure point. But that's static, and we don't have even our own movement and intent to mitigate our reaction. And, of course, once we know the experience, it's less shocking the next time. Someone who has felt these should be able to stand almost any of them and resist being moved, though it may hurt to do so.

 

[marques]

I have some experience with pressure points and Kyushu-Jitsu in particular.

Strength:
- Clear benefit for the student: knowledge about body weaknesses and ideal targets.

Weakness:
- Effect largely variable for person to person and largely reduced when aggressor / opponent is adrenalised. Also difficult to be that accurate.

Conclusion:
- I don't trust Kyushu as the main tool / solution / art. But it would be a great complement for many. For instance, my Kyusho instructor learned a lot about TKD forms meaning. I found it very useful to create opportunities / space in grappling or very short distance.

Ps: After reading other comments, it seems we all largely agree. Which is really rare.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ps: After reading other comments, it seems we all largely agree.

No we don't.

 

[Buka]

Gee, I don't know, fellas, I went to a Dillman seminar once and those pressure points seemed to work just fine on the people there.

 

[JR 137]

Gee, I don't know, fellas, I went to a Dillman seminar once and those pressure points seemed to work just fine on the people there.

I love that movie. Haven't seen it in years.

 

[frank raud]

I went to a Dillman seminar when it was the big three (Wally Jay, Remy Presas and Dillman). As a green belt in jiu jitsu, I got into a disagreement with Master Dillman on whether putting your wrist under other person's wrist(with an extended arm), and being able to bend their wrist, was a pressure point(Dillman's view), or leverage(my view). I had trouble with much of his stuff, but I will say when he hit me, it hurt! Of course, he is a very strong man, and it was a chin jab.

 

[JP3]

True on all points. To the OP: I could probably easily find a pressure point or two on you that would bring you to your knees in a quick demonstration, with little effort on my part. And with just a little Adrenalin in your system (fear, anger, etc.), you might not even notice them. Pressure points are nice additions to effective technique, but shouldn't be depended upon.

I would expand this to be any technique which is primarily reliant on pain compliance. Remove the pain reaction, and you remove the need for compliance.

 

[Hanshi]

1. There are spots on the human body where a forceful blow will produce a significantly greater effect than the equivalent blow elsewhere. Any decent striking art should include knowledge of these targets.
2. There are spots on the body where a strike or concentrated pressure can produce significant discomfort. It's worth being familiar with these, but there is a large amount of variation among individuals. Back when I was studying these sort of nerve point attacks I was once able to drop a muscular 200 pound guy while demonstrating fairly light pressure. Later on I tried demonstrating the exact same technique on a 120 pound woman and she shrugged it off even when I applied full force. More importantly, pain compliance techniques like these which feel nasty in a relaxed training environment will often be completely ignored in a real fight once emotions are running high. Adrenaline is a potent pain killer.
3. The sort of stuff shown in videos like the one you posted, where the demonstrator lightly taps someone who then keels over like they've just been touched by the Holy Ghost through a faith healer, are complete bunk.

That mirrors my experience as well. I've put strong male students in agony and the same technique brought nothing from some women and even some men.