Kyokoshinkai and the missing head punch??

[Zero]

I initially posted this below to a members query but thought it may be better as a separate post.

I don't train in KSK as a core style but have trained with and fought many practitioners of that style. WHile like muay thai and kickboxing ksk training and sparring can be very intense and at times brutal I think the main fault (yes fault!) with the style is its sport like rule of not being able to deliver punches/elbow etc strikes to the head. I have found time and again while fighting ksk students and watching them fight that when they enter freestyle or mma tournaments this can put them at a disadvantage as they are not used and conditioned to covering up, primarily to punches but also not quite as experienced with head kicks either. This of course doesn't apply to experienced fighters who are used to mixing it up.

My sensei having fought and trained throughout Asia arranged for the number 2 under 20 ksk from Japan to stay and train with us for several months while he was studying. And while this guy was incredibly conditioned and tough with a kick-**** attitude, for the first month I punished him severally with punches and to a degree front kicks/hook kicks to the head (albeit when in close my kidneys always seemed to get a hammering from him!!!). The guy was good and very smart though so after a month he had the idea down but it was still a weakness for a while (I often wonder if training with us got him disqualified back home by automatically throwing a straight or hook in a tournament).

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that while ksk is a hard as nails style with a lot of great skills - and I am in no way disrespecting it or its students - I see this as a glaring omission and can't get my head around why Mas went this way! And hey I know every style on its own has weaknesses and blindspots but to remove such a vunerable body part from so many effective strikes puzzles me??

 

[TjThunder]

I've heard 2 different ideas on why the head punch was left out. First I heard it was originally ommitted to protect the punchers hand. Oyama wanted to keep his style bareknuckle and full contact, since there is a good chance of the hand being broken while delivering full contact blows in the heat of battle. The other reason I heard was to protect the persons face, since punches are usually easier to land the prospect of someone getting repeatedly punched in the face with bareknuckles would quickly turn the fight into a bloodbath and therefore turn away many spectators from Oyama's art. These of course are just things I've heard down the grapevine, feel free for anyone to correct me.

 

[TjThunder]

I read something on another forum once that mentioned this similiar topic and they said something similiar to you. That ommitting the head punch does tend to leave out that option in some KK people in a sparring situation. You fight like you train in many respects. For the record I still have a tremendous amount of respect for KK people, and would definitely practice the art if there was a school around me.

 

[Martin h]

I've heard 2 different ideas on why the head punch was left out. First I heard it was originally ommitted to protect the punchers hand. Oyama wanted to keep his style bareknuckle and full contact, since there is a good chance of the hand being broken while delivering full contact blows in the heat of battle. The other reason I heard was to protect the persons face, since punches are usually easier to land the prospect of someone getting repeatedly punched in the face with bareknuckles would quickly turn the fight into a bloodbath and therefore turn away many spectators from Oyama's art. These of course are just things I've heard down the grapevine, feel free for anyone to correct me.

The 3rd reason was that Oyama himseldf once killed a man by a single punch to the head (in self defense, the guy came at him with a knife).
The 4rth reason was that bare fist fighting/brawling was forbidden by law in japan. Removing headpunches allowed them to allow trouble if the police decided that it was brawling, not sport.

 

[Zero]

Hey thanks for that, that was quite interesting and illuminating on those reasons. Having been hit in the face a few times with bare knuckles or mma gloves I can appreciate if the training is constantly full contact how impracticle it would be - a lot of students would spend more time getting stiched up than training.

 

[Martin h]

You should also remember that this was supposed to be competition rules, but that the fighters was never supposed to neglect to train all those other fun things that is banned in competitions.

At one camp I attended for Shihan Collins a few years ago, he was instructing and showed us some things. After showing it, he commented -"but of course this is not allowed in competition. NOTHING is allowed in competitions!".

Sadly Oyama never realised that face punches, throws, and much much more would basically disappear since they were banned from the sport aspect.
And when the rules first where used, everyone knew how to protect from facepunches. In the old days they trained and sparred with face punches and towels wrapped over their knuckles instead of gloves. That is how they did it, and they could not imagine that their students would not do it the same way.
You are supposed to train everything, and then just not use everything when competing. But naturally sport fighters just train to excel under the rules of the game.

 

[chinto]

You should also remember that this was supposed to be competition rules, but that the fighters was never supposed to neglect to train all those other fun things that is banned in competitions.

At one camp I attended for Shihan Collins a few years ago, he was instructing and showed us some things. After showing it, he commented -"but of course this is not allowed in competition. NOTHING is allowed in competitions!".

Sadly Oyama never realised that face punches, throws, and much much more would basically disappear since they were banned from the sport aspect.
And when the rules first where used, everyone knew how to protect from facepunches. In the old days they trained and sparred with face punches and towels wrapped over their knuckles instead of gloves. That is how they did it, and they could not imagine that their students would not do it the same way.
You are supposed to train everything, and then just not use everything when competing. But naturally sport fighters just train to excel under the rules of the game.

yes sad but true, the people who compeat in sports will optimize what they do and how they train to excel at that sport. I am not some one who compeats or trains to compeat so I am sure I train diferently then some one who is more into compititions and turnements.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This is something that has plagued any art that has created a sport version and then eliminated head punches. Look at WTF Tae Kwon Do competitors as they have the exact same problem in general when someone is allowed to punch their face. Years of not training for it will definately put you at a disadvantage whether in competition or in a real world violent encounter.

 

[Martin h]

This is something that has plagued any art that has created a sport version and then eliminated head punches.

not only headpunches. All competition sparring system have some weaknesses that causes bad real-fight habits. WKF karate has a problem with the difference between light and full contact hits, continuous sparring vs breaking after each hit, and the lack of lowkicks.

MMA has fewer weaknesses, but they do have rules to limit injuries, so they have some problems too.

 

[SenseiRuss]

It's true — although Kyokushin sparring is brutal, and can cause serious injury, even without head punches, generally most sparring practice does teach us to avoid attacks to the really vulnerable areas, ones we should use in a real-world violent encounters — such as kicks or knees to the groin, fingers to the eyes, hand strikes to the throat, ears, temples. Kyokushin does allow kicks to the head, neck, temples, etc., but these are not as practical, for most of us, in a real-world violent encounter.


Still, training in Kyokushin will teach you a lot of good stuff, like endurance, strong striking and blocking, and definitely the ability to withstanding pain — a great advantage in the street/real world. Someone hits you hard in the face and you shake it right off — the attacker has to wonder if he's picked the wrong guy to mug or sucker punch!


Osu,
RB

 

[Manny]

This is something that has plagued any art that has created a sport version and then eliminated head punches. Look at WTF Tae Kwon Do competitors as they have the exact same problem in general when someone is allowed to punch their face. Years of not training for it will definately put you at a disadvantage whether in competition or in a real world violent encounter.

Agree as long as you only train WTF rules sparring, however there are some TKDoings who practice straight TKD (Martial Arts) and whom if need it can punch the face and even use a ridgehand or a knife hand to the temple or troat and even spear hand to the eyes.

Manny