Kung Fu Vs.

[Black Tiger Fist]

RHD you are not going to insult me by talking about Sin or Hiang The. I have train in the system and its sad that the student of both sides can't work together. Gin foon mark came down to my instructors gym in eastern Ky and the first thing he did was look around the gym as all the Photo of the Shaolin master (Shoalin do) and he also said like everyone "Shaolin Karate?" my instructor walked to the center of the gym and preformed the Iron Man internal Kata. Master Mark said "that's Shaolin". That's was all he said about the so called Shaolin Do System. Master mark also talked about the anchent styles of shoalin being to open with high kicks. I wish we could find more on the history of the The' brothers system because I feal there is a lot more to the system than meet's the eye. thats why I got on MT I thought some of you may be able to help me trace the history of some ot the forms.

I don't doubt that story ,but it's only because so much of what Shaolin-Do teaches is borrowed from other styles. So Master GFM could've seen one of your forms and said that because it was a borrowed form.

I know that Shaolin-Do teaches other forms i have vid of a Shaolin-Do stylist doing Hung Gar's Fu Hok (tiger-crane) form. He was taught this as a Shaolin-Do form.

I won't go into anything negative about Shaolin-Do because it's not my place ,plus who wants to hear another Shaolin-Do discussion?!?!?:idunno:

I will say this though the mantis i have seen Sin The' himself do is unlike any mantis i've ever seen.:mst:

jeff

 

[Matt Stone]

I'll apologize (half-heartedly) ahead of time if I come across too "authoritarian" with this post...

#1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision. Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.

#2 - Cross-training is a good thing, but shouldn't be undertaken until a person has had sufficient time in training their base style. I agree fully that cross-training can open your eyes to things already contained in your own style, but you won't fully appreciate that until you know enough about your style to make the connection.

#3 - Cross-training is a bad thing if undertaken too soon. "Jack of all trades, master of none" gets nobody anywhere. A good style, taught by a good teacher, trained against live, resisting opponents, is far more useful and productive than dancing around from dojo to dojo learning a kick here, a punch there, etc. Learn to use what you already know. When what you know is fully understood, then go play with others.

#4 - In a style with a self-proclaimed forms library of over 500 forms, it is unlikely that those forms are "Shaolin" in origin, necessarily (and please note the spelling of Shaolin - it takes away from the legitimacy of your comments when you can't even spell the name of your own style). Certainly many martial arts came from other countries, originally, but the Shaolin temples were not the birthplace of every martial art. Early Chinese arts, especially the Shaolin arts, have strong ties to Indian yoga and martial dance. Korean arts have strong Chinese ties, and with the historical and anthropological movement from Korea to Japan, there is a strong argument for the influence Korea had on Japan as well as the well documented influence that Japan had on Korea. The indigenous Okinawan arts, coupled with the Chinese influence through trade, had their own impact on Japanese development... The list goes on. Bottom line, Shaolin wasn't the hotbed of martial development that your story would indicate.

My work here is done... :asian:

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

#1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision. Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.

Not true!

I agree that kicking to the head is not always a good idea ,but there are times when it can be pulled off on an opponent ,the trick is knowing the time and the opponent to pull it on.

I have a friend that is a MMA champion ,and he pulls off high kicks in MMA matches ,because noone expects someone to try such a kick.

#4 - In a style with a self-proclaimed forms library of over 500 forms, it is unlikely that those forms are "Shaolin" in origin, necessarily (and please note the spelling of Shaolin - it takes away from the legitimacy of your comments when you can't even spell the name of your own style). Certainly many martial arts came from other countries, originally, but the Shaolin temples were not the birthplace of every martial art. Early Chinese arts, especially the Shaolin arts, have strong ties to Indian yoga and martial dance. Korean arts have strong Chinese ties, and with the historical and anthropological movement from Korea to Japan, there is a strong argument for the influence Korea had on Japan as well as the well documented influence that Japan had on Korea. The indigenous Okinawan arts, coupled with the Chinese influence through trade, had their own impact on Japanese development... The list goes on. Bottom line, Shaolin wasn't the hotbed of martial development that your story would indicate.

My work here is done... :asian:

Agreed,

But alot of shaolin arts carry the shaolin name because that's where they were exchanged between different stylist ,so they became known as shaolin arts.

Black Tiger being a good example Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn (Shaolin Black Tiger) is what it's known as ,but it's well known that Su Hak Fu created Hak Fu Muhn. After creating his art it was at onetime only taught to Shaolin Monks ,thus the Shaolin name ,so the samething has happened with other styles and arts as well.

Now what Sin The' says is just in a word "crazy" i mean to say you have over 900 forms is just out there. My sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung taught Black Tiger in thirds because he felt that 80 forms was just too much for one person to contain in his head.

So how The' can contain over 900 is beyond my realm of thinking.:erg:


jeff

 

[7starmantis]

I will say this though the mantis i have seen Sin The' himself do is unlike any mantis i've ever seen.:mst:

As in good like you've never seen or bad?

I'll apologize (half-heartedly) ahead of time if I come across too "authoritarian" with this post...

Lol, no need to appologize.

#1 - Kicking to the head anytime other than when your opponent is on the ground and therefore close to your feet is a poor, poor decision. Unless the attacker is a buffoon, and the defender an amazing speciment of conditioning and training, the kick won't land and will open the kicker up for no end of pain.

I completely agree with you, with one exception. If your head is low enough for me to kick you in it without kicking over my waiste, I'm going to nail you there. In the mantis system we do alot of "plucking" or low attacking that will lower your head waist level, then I'm going to use the head kick. Standing up head kick....I agree with you 100%.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

As in good like you've never seen or bad?

7sm

As in BAD!!!! like i've never seen.


I know he has a small clip up of him doing mantis ,i'll get the link and post it here for you to see.


jeff

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Ok here we go ,you'll need the Divx bundle to play these.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/MantisPick&PlayGonzales_noaudio.avi


http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/avi/tanglang_noaudio.avi


jeff

 

[7starmantis]

WOW.

Who is that exactly do you know? Is that Sin The's student? Is that a shaolin-do student or form?

7sm

 

[sifu Adams]

just have a couple of things to say. first you must have never spared any one that know how to kick. and it would be a joy to spar you if you really believe that noone can kick you to the head. that would be great to learn.

As for the spelling sorry I see things backwords and it causes me to have trouble spelling. but are you really relying on my spelling to tell how well the system is?

My instuctor had only studied the Shaolin do system for 25 years before he met Master Gin foon Mark. Only after 3 days he was training directly under Master Mark. How many of you have trained directly under Master Mark? My instructor Master Shane Hamilton is now a deciple under master mark. This would lead me to believe their is a little bit more to the Shaolin do art than it looked like another system.

Has anyone spared the student of the Shaolin do systme? or are you basing everything off a video and Post like this?

 

[Matt Stone]

I watched a brown belt class at the Colorado Springs Shaolin-do school run by a husband and wife partnership...

There were three brown belts all chasing one brown belt into a corner (he was running for his life). Once he was in the corner, he used the ancient Shaolin "fetal position of death" to endure the beating the other three laid on him...

I was impressed, really, just not in a favorable way.

 

[sifu Adams]

You watched one brown belt class and made your mind up. I invite you to any of my classes, not to fight but to learn about the system and let me show you how we do it. Believe me it is a lot differnt that Sin's Group. I would have never put three brown belt sparing each other anyway. I will also tell you that the way the system was taught before we changed it the no aplication was showed out to lower rank which ment you had to black belt before you learned how to use the forms. you are more than welcome to come take a class or watch a class any time no cost. I believe you shouldn't talk about a system or anything unless you have a good understanding and have been trained in a system. If you would like to learn email me and we will set a time.

 

[Matt Stone]

You watched one brown belt class and made your mind up.

I don't have to submit myself to years of dog bites to learn I don't like being bitten by dogs...

I will also tell you that the way the system was taught before we changed it the no aplication was showed out to lower rank which ment you had to black belt before you learned how to use the forms.

That is a method of instruction I don't agree with... Withholding information until someone proves themselves "worthy" somehow, or by waiting until they are a senior student, does little other than water down what the junior students are doing. If they are questionable students to begin with, it is unlikely they will train adequately enough to benefit from anything they are taught, regardless of its "level."

you are more than welcome to come take a class or watch a class any time no cost. I believe you shouldn't talk about a system or anything unless you have a good understanding and have been trained in a system. If you would like to learn email me and we will set a time.

Given that I currently live in WA, and am soon moving to Korea, I doubt I'll be taking you up on the offer. Further, I've been doing Yiliquan since 1985, and I don't feel a real need to take up Shaolin-do no matter who it is being taught by.

Thanks anyway.

 

[sifu Adams]

that is what I thought. noone is ever willing to learn. O'well case closed.

 

[TigerWoman]

I will also tell you that the way the system was taught before we changed it the no aplication was showed out to lower rank which ment you had to black belt before you learned how to use the forms.

Of course, I also agree that those that do high kicks well, use them effectively and anyone reading this might think, oh TKD, but if you train that strength regularly you do get very good at timing. Also, our school, TKD, used to give out material to the level of the rank and not told much about it. They couldn't handle too much though as a beginner. But that changed. We teach now, including application, as to how ready they are for more. I'm glad you changed your system too. TW

 

[Matt Stone]

that is what I thought. noone is ever willing to learn. O'well case closed.

Because, of course, I'd drop everything, move to Ohio, leave the military, relocate my family, etc., all just to study Shaolin-do or whatever it is you do?

I don't think so.

Don't question my willingness to learn... I've studied widely, in the US and overseas, and I plan on continuing to do so. But I pick and choose what I want to train in, and I won't train in an art just to validate my opinions on it. I saw some of the training, I wasn't impressed. Asking me to train in an art before I form an opinion is like saying I should buy a car without getting the blue book information or an accident history... Unwise on both counts.

 

[sifu Adams]

I didn't say leave everything. I just think you need to be open minded on things. I may question a art but it is only to learn. to make a comment like no one should kick to the head, does not make since to me. their are times when I will kick to the head, and there are times I will kick low but it all has to do with who I am sparring, there stance, weight placement. I stuided Mondern arnis under the direction of Prof. Ramy. and he helped us understand our art better than anyone. everything he did we had seen before. what we saw as a punch and a kick he showed as a lock and a throw. I don't think there is one style better than any other. its all about what you put in it. but if you lock yourself in a box and don't take the time to learn then you may set your self up to fail. I have also travaled many places. that dosen't make me any better and dosen't mean I can't learn from others. Their is more to a fight than kicking and punching. In the military your not taught to run and shoot. you are taught stagity and you have a plan based off of your study of the enimey. You look at there defence and you break it down using your training. Would you ever go into battle not having any clue about who you are fighting? Would you go into battle thinking you could win after only seeing 4 people out of the whole army fight? If not why would you in the martial arts? I joined MT so I could learn more about the other styles how they think, what tech they use, the history of thier systems. I may never use it but it helps me learn. Do you train how to block a kick? If noone ever throws akick at you head level how do you know you can block it? I know some TKD student that can kick hard and fast at head level. I have learned a great deal on how to defend from a TKD kick but that only come from having a skilled TKD student throwing the kick. just something to think about.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

WOW.

Who is that exactly do you know? Is that Sin The's student? Is that a shaolin-do student or form?

7sm

I can't see the video right now because i'm at work ,but one of them is Sin The' if not both i can't remember,the older looking asian guy is him.

Here's a link to some of their forms ,i'll only say this. Their Black Tiger "IS NOT" Shaolin Black Tiger!!!

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm


jeff

 

[sifu Adams]

Black Tiger Fist,
why do you say that thier black tiger form is not Shaolin Black tiger? have you seen all the Black tiger that the shaolin has to offer or is their something that stands out in the form that say this is not shoalin Black tiger? I would really like to hear how the differance and the data that supports that statment.

 

[RHD]

Black Tiger Fist,
why do you say that thier black tiger form is not Shaolin Black tiger? have you seen all the Black tiger that the shaolin has to offer or is their something that stands out in the form that say this is not shoalin Black tiger? I would really like to hear how the differance and the data that supports that statment.

I think what BTF is trying to say here is that it bears little in common with the Black Tiger System. In other words, it's a form called black tiger that appears to be completely unrelated to the Black Tiger system that he's learned. Perhaps a comparison video clip could be posted.

On another note, I can do just about anything in a form layout and call it shaolin. It woud be equally difficult to prove that it either is, or isn't shaolin since most everything these days claims to have some shaolin in its history.


Mike

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Black Tiger Fist,
why do you say that thier black tiger form is not Shaolin Black tiger?

Sifu Adams,

No offense to you ,so sorry if you feel i'm picking on your style.

But, one style i do know without a doubt ,is Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn (Shaolin Black Tiger) I'm a disciple of C.Kuen Woo ,who was Grandmaster Wong Cheung's top disciple ,and chairman of the Black Tiger Assocation.

I know all the original core Shaolin Black Tiger sets ,and "NONE" of those vids on that site are Shaolin Black Tiger ,nor do they resemble Shantung Black Tiger or Fu Jow Pai- Tiger Claw Black Tiger.

Now there are other Black Tiger styles that exist that are not CMA ,but those are the three known Black Tiger styles with our lineage leading directly to Su Hak Fu himself ,and the Shaolin temple.

have you seen all the Black tiger that the shaolin has to offer or is their something that stands out in the form that say this is not shoalin Black tiger?

Actually ,i have seen "ALL" the Shaolin Black Tiger sets!

Because if you know anything about Shaolin Black Tiger ,you would know there were only 5 fist sets before Fung Ping-Wai and Wong Cheung added more sets to it.

I would really like to hear how the differance and the data that supports that statment.

As i stated i'm a disciple of the only known disciple of Grandmaster Wong Cheung teaching Black Tiger in the world!

Most Black Tiger stylist choose to take their knowledge to the grave with them.

Shaolin Black Tiger is a very rare and secretive system ,but if you know the style it has a distinct flavor that can be noticed right away. Also there are many things that Shaolin Black Tiger is famous for ,and Sin The's Black Tiger doesn't have any of those things.

Namely the 9 Armed Grinder Dummy and there is also a distinct Shaolin Black Tiger salute or bow. The bow has always been used to distingush a Black Tiger Stylist ,and brother in Hung.

Not to mention Black Tiger's known spiritual side ,just to name a few.

jeff

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I think what BTF is trying to say here is that it bears little in common with the Black Tiger System. In other words, it's a form called black tiger that appears to be completely unrelated to the Black Tiger system that he's learned. Perhaps a comparison video clip could be posted.

On another note, I can do just about anything in a form layout and call it shaolin. It woud be equally difficult to prove that it either is, or isn't shaolin since most everything these days claims to have some shaolin in its history.


Mike

Very true indeed!

Here's a clip of the first Black Tiger form Hak Fu Ching jhong (Black Tiger Front Dummy) ,since RHD asked about a vid clip being posted.

This vid has been edited and is done without power or speed but it was done that way so you could see the techniques.


http://members.lycos.co.uk/shaolinblacktiger/images/Front%20Dummy.wmv


jeff