Kukkiwon restructure

[bluekey88]

If the Kukkiwon folds...we may see a retunr to a Kwan-like era. But I don't see the old Kwans themselves taking the reigns. My gut feeling is that they have really been subsumed by the larger organization. Maybe in and around Korea they will have a resurgence.

Elsewhere, I see individual schools doing things their way. TKD will then splinter further until you have "99 flavors" of TKD instead of the 3 or 4 we have today. This is neither a good nor bad thing...some school's will be very good, some not so much. Much like today.

Peace,
Erik

 

[miguksaram]

Yes, I was primarily thinking of the Jido Kwan and the Manchurian chuan fa forms Byung In Yoon taught. My opinion still stands though. I prefer my martial arts to be organic and more familial or school oriented. The whole Kukkiwon system seems rather sterile and bureaucratic, but I'm not a Kukkiwon member so what do I know?

Also keep this in mind, the KKW doesn't restrict the practicing of other techniques. It lays out a specific requirement to be met in ordered to be certified. So your Jidokwan school (which btw, I am also Jidokwan) can still hold true to its root forms.

 

[miguksaram]

Unfortunately, anytime a big organization swallows one or more smaller organizations, homogenization is what occurs and whatever charm or uniqueness is lost.

Daniel

Keep in mind the KKW didn't "swallow" the kwans. The leaders of the kwans formed the KKW. The banded together to form a uniformed curriculum of martial arts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Keep in mind the KKW didn't "swallow" the kwans. The leaders of the kwans formed the KKW. The banded together to form a uniformed curriculum of martial arts.

True.

I used the generic expression in the sense that the many went into the larger one in the process of forming the KKW. But the end result is the same: homogenization. While not necesarilly bad, what made each kwan unique was lost in the process.

There's a benefit to having a big organization, no question. Stability, uniform standards, portable rank, huge number of tournaments available to members, and the ability to actually check the authenticity of a practitioner's claims of rank (a huge benefit in my opinion, given the number of frauds out there).

But there's also a drawback. Gradings are not policed as strictly and standards generally lower, not rise, when small orgs morph into one big one. Big organizations tend to come with all of the corporate corruption issues that small orgs can (but not always do) more easily avoid. Which is the very problem that the KKW seems to be experiencing.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

Not to sound like an ***, but if you prefer the "Kwan" then your best bet is to quit TKD and join Shotokan as that is where the vast majority of the kwans came from. Unless you came from Changdokwan or Jidokwan, the forms were pretty much the same through out. It was more than just a political idea that prompted the formation of TKD.

Not true at all. Every Kwan, even from the earliest days, established themselves as separate from whatever their influences were. Chung Do Kwan was definitely not just Shotokan. So you could join a Kwan and still retain the flavor and spirit or Korean martial art.

 

[exile]

Not true at all. Every Kwan, even from the earliest days, established themselves as separate from whatever their influences were. Chung Do Kwan was definitely not just Shotokan. So you could join a Kwan and still retain the flavor and spirit or Korean martial art.

Yeah, and that point deserves a lot of expanding on. The Kwans didn't just get together and ditch their separate identities, curricula, forms and so on; they were under terrific pressure from the Korean government, and not just any old part of the government, but the ROK military—which had more clout than the rest of the government put together—looking for a standardized training curriculum for its infantry; for the gory details, see Eric Madis' 'The evolution of Taekwondo from Korean karate', Martial Arts in the Modern World (Green & Svinth, eds. Praeger, 2003) or Dakin Burdick's 1997 and 2000 papers (citations here). Whatever the facts are about Korean history that drove the Kwans to accept the homogenization that a series of military dictatorships was anxious to impose on the spectrum of MAs they originally taught, there's absolutely no reason why we in North American need to accept the KKW's particular interpretation of what TKD should be (something very glitzified and wushu-like, I'd say, judging from the new forms they're sponsoring; but what else is new?). The British have done a brilliant job of taking karate away from its increasing sportification, a major trend in Japan among other places, back to its down-and-dirty fighting roots through the work of Iain Abernethy, Gavin Mulholland and many others; there's no reason why a North American reconstruction of the kwan idea, with curricula built around the self-defense applications elaborated by people like Simon John O'Neill and our own Stuart Anslow, can't do the same the same thing for the increasing number of people here who don't have any interest in sport TKD but want the effictive fighting system that we know TKD started out as. For the KKW, and the Korean TKD directorate general, TKD is an instrument of Korean nationalism and a potent economic lever. What on earth does that have to do with us?? A TKD curriculum and organizational context reflecting North American interests and MA priorities, which are definitely not going to coincide with Korean interests and priorities, is going to emerge over the next decade, I'd say, and that's all to the good. And experimentation and innovation in the development of that context, in which the individual school is the active center of curriculum development and certification, is I think far healthier than a corrupt, bloated top-down sport mega-organization, purpose-built for the nationalistic aspirations of another country, with a profoundly different history and set of problems that it hopes to overcome. No matter how the KKW is restructured, it, or whatever replaces it in name, it's always going to be an instrumentality of an ROK agenda that serves the ROK vision of what it wants to be in the world, just as it and its precursers have been for just about half a century. I think we can do a lot better on our own.

 

[terryl965]

Great post Exile and welcome back:asian:

 

[exile]

Great post Exile and welcome back:asian:

Thanks, Terry—it's very good to be back!

 

[IcemanSK]

I second Master Stoker's words on both counts.:ultracool

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And I third them!

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

True.

I used the generic expression in the sense that the many went into the larger one in the process of forming the KKW. But the end result is the same: homogenization. While not necesarilly bad, what made each kwan unique was lost in the process.

Again, unless you were Jidokwan or Chang Moo Kwan, there wasn't really anything unique about the schools. They were all pretty much students of Shotokan. So they all studied the same patterns and such.

There's a benefit to having a big organization, no question. Stability, uniform standards, portable rank, huge number of tournaments available to members, and the ability to actually check the authenticity of a practitioner's claims of rank (a huge benefit in my opinion, given the number of frauds out there).

But there's also a drawback. Gradings are not policed as strictly and standards generally lower, not rise, when small orgs morph into one big one. Big organizations tend to come with all of the corporate corruption issues that small orgs can (but not always do) more easily avoid. Which is the very problem that the KKW seems to be experiencing.

Daniel

But is that the organization's fault or the fault of the instructor for the lowered standards? I place a bit more blame on the individual schools than that of the organization. As far as corruption is concerned, small orgs can be just as bad as the big orgs. The bigger orgs have a bit more checks and balances than the smaller ones. However, they are more vulnerable to corruption than the smaller ones.

 

[miguksaram]

Not true at all. Every Kwan, even from the earliest days, established themselves as separate from whatever their influences were. Chung Do Kwan was definitely not just Shotokan. So you could join a Kwan and still retain the flavor and spirit or Korean martial art.

I would have to disagree. For the most part the kwan leaders were students of Shotokan who, upon returning to Korea opened up their own school. Very few had any other martial art training outside of that. What other martial art did CDK present outside of Shotokan?

Joining a kwan didn't give you a Korean martial art. For the most part you were learning a Japanese martial art. Once they all got together, they combined their efforts to produce a Korean martial art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Again, unless you were Jidokwan or Chang Moo Kwan, there wasn't really anything unique about the schools. They were all pretty much students of Shotokan. So they all studied the same patterns and such.

Perhaps, but even if that is the case, each one, I'm sure had its unique flavor. Within a given martial art, there is always variance between schools, even in the same organization. Each kwan was a product of the individuals who founded it and the way in which they trained and perhaps even where they were. I can't say much beyond this, as I am not as knowleagable about the kwans as I'd like to be (working on it).

But is that the organization's fault or the fault of the instructor for the lowered standards? I place a bit more blame on the individual schools than that of the organization. As far as corruption is concerned, small orgs can be just as bad as the big orgs. The bigger orgs have a bit more checks and balances than the smaller ones. However, they are more vulnerable to corruption than the smaller ones.

Most definitely small orgs can be as bad. We're on the same page there. That's why I said Big organizations tend to come with all of the corporate corruption issues that small orgs can (but not always do) more easily avoid. Big orgs have more checks and ballances, but also more avenues of corruption to check and ballance.

Regarding lowering standards, I wasn't thinking of it in that regard: I'm talking about the actual codified standards of the curriculum, not the laxity of individual instructors promoting undeserving students, though I agree that that is a problem too.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Yeah, and that point deserves a lot of expanding on. The Kwans didn't just get together and ditch their separate identities, curricula, forms and so on; they were under terrific pressure from the Korean government, and not just any old part of the government, but the ROK military—which had more clout than the rest of the government put together—

This should be expanded a bit more. Prior to any military influence, the kwan leaders wanted to unify during the Korean war due to social disorder. They wanted to establish a distinguishable martial art that brought back Korean traditional fighting skills. There was much disruption in this process. In '59 Choi, Hong-hi lobbied the Korean Ministry of Education and the Korean Sports Authority to establish the the KTA. In '61 was when there was a Military coup which over threw the reigning government and caused a rush in re-registering the KTA. This was unsuccessful and an independent meeting was established without outside influence to develope the standard.

It was Choi's connection to President Rhee which help put his art in the military training as well as pushed it through out Korea. Prior to this the military was not pushing for anything.

Whatever the facts are about Korean history that drove the Kwans to accept the homogenization that a series of military dictatorships was anxious to impose on the spectrum of MAs they originally taught, there's absolutely no reason why we in North American need to accept the KKW's particular interpretation of what TKD should be (something very glitzified and wushu-like, I'd say, judging from the new forms they're sponsoring; but what else is new?).

This makes no sense. That's like saying we don't have to accept the Supreme Court's interpretation of the law, even though they establish it. The KKW was established to be the interpreter of what TKD is supposed to be. It was established by the kwan leaders as a source of unification of the TKD.

The British have done a brilliant job of taking karate away from its increasing sportification, a major trend in Japan among other places, back to its down-and-dirty fighting roots through the work of Iain Abernethy, Gavin Mulholland and many others; there's no reason why a North American reconstruction of the kwan idea, with curricula built around the self-defense applications elaborated by people like Simon John O'Neill and our own Stuart Anslow, can't do the same the same thing for the increasing number of people here who don't have any interest in sport TKD but want the effictive fighting system that we know TKD started out as.

As I said before. If you want the "traditional" TKD, then go take Shotokan.

For the KKW, and the Korean TKD directorate general, TKD is an instrument of Korean nationalism and a potent economic lever. What on earth does that have to do with us?? A TKD curriculum and organizational context reflecting North American interests and MA priorities, which are definitely not going to coincide with Korean interests and priorities, is going to emerge over the next decade, I'd say, and that's all to the good. And experimentation and innovation in the development of that context, in which the individual school is the active center of curriculum development and certification, is I think far healthier than a corrupt, bloated top-down sport mega-organization, purpose-built for the nationalistic aspirations of another country, with a profoundly different history and set of problems that it hopes to overcome. No matter how the KKW is restructured, it, or whatever replaces it in name, it's always going to be an instrumentality of an ROK agenda that serves the ROK vision of what it wants to be in the world, just as it and its precursers have been for just about half a century. I think we can do a lot better on our own.

Yes, such great "American" TKD concepts have been done so well such as the ATA. No money grubbing there eh? Bottom line is this, if you don't like the KKW, then don't be a part of it. Just don't call what you do TKD.

 

[miguksaram]

Perhaps, but even if that is the case, each one, I'm sure had its unique flavor. Within a given martial art, there is always variance between schools, even in the same organization. Each kwan was a product of the individuals who founded it and the way in which they trained and perhaps even where they were. I can't say much beyond this, as I am not as knowleagable about the kwans as I'd like to be (working on it).

Well that shouldn't have changed. The KKW just establishes a basic set of requirements needed to be promoted within the system. Every school can go above and beyond the requirments if they so choose. So in essence the flavor is still there. Example would be my last instructor's TKD school. We are also required to learn basic arnis & HKD in order to promote. So we have our own flavor while still be in line with KKW. He hasn't lost his identity.

Most definitely small orgs can be as bad. We're on the same page there. That's why I said Big organizations tend to come with all of the corporate corruption issues that small orgs can (but not always do) more easily avoid. Big orgs have more checks and ballances, but also more avenues of corruption to check and ballance.

Agreed.

Regarding lowering standards, I wasn't thinking of it in that regard: I'm talking about the actual codified standards of the curriculum, not the laxity of individual instructors promoting undeserving students, though I agree that that is a problem too

I see what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[dancingalone]

As I said before. If you want the "traditional" TKD, then go take Shotokan.

Yes, such great "American" TKD concepts have been done so well such as the ATA. No money grubbing there eh? Bottom line is this, if you don't like the KKW, then don't be a part of it. Just don't call what you do TKD.

I reject the idea that only Kukkiwon taekwondo is taekwondo. The Kukkiwon may be the largest "style" currently, but it's certainly not the only one out there. The various ITFs are an obvious counterexample as are the students of prominent TKD independent masters like He Il Cho or Jhoon Rhee.

 

[Kwanjang]

I reject the idea that only Kukkiwon taekwondo is taekwondo. The Kukkiwon may be the largest "style" currently, but it's certainly not the only one out there. The various ITFs are an obvious counterexample as are the students of prominent TKD independent masters like He Il Cho or Jhoon Rhee.

Nice post! Both great icons of TKD. My pref would be He Il Cho. almost joined his Assoc. in 97

 

[Twin Fist]

I reject the idea that only Kukkiwon taekwondo is taekwondo. The Kukkiwon may be the largest "style" currently, but it's certainly not the only one out there. The various ITFs are an obvious counterexample as are the students of prominent TKD independent masters like He Il Cho or Jhoon Rhee.

as do I.

The KKW isnt even a style, it is apolitical organization that exists, as far as I can see just to make money.

And what do you get for that money?

a card

and the ability to look someone up and see if THEY paid the KKW money.

The idea that it lends one credibility is false, since they dont actually test the people below a certain rank, all you gotta do is get a signature from someone else that paid them money

they only actually test what? candidates for 8th and above?

they just take the money and issue the card.

Sorry, but this "the KKW way or the highway" stuff irks me to no end

Martial artists should not make themselves slaves to a political group

 

[Kwanjang]

as do I.

they only actually test what? candidates for 8th and above?

some great posting CT!

Yes, My teacher had to got appear before them in 2001 for his 9th.

I think in the Beginning the concept of the Kukkiwon was a noble one. But it would seem not to be the case anymore.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

as do I.

And I as well. The idea that only the KKW is taekwondo can certainly be argued, but so too can the opposite. I'm not even sure that the KKW would maintain that non KKW taekwondo is not taekwondo (though I could be wrong on that count).

The KKW isnt even a style, it is a political organization that exists, as far as I can see just to make money.

I disagree with the first sentence; it is a style with specific forms and techniques. Regarding the rest, while I disagree that they exist for the sole purpose of making money, making money is definitely something that they do very well.

And what do you get for that money?

a card

and the ability to look someone up and see if THEY paid the KKW money.

It also gains one access to any tournament circuit that requires KKW membership or a KKW blackbelt. May or may not be important to you (it isn't to me personally), but it is important for some. Also, it is as valueable to those who hold KKW rank as your rank is to you. Admittedly, the pride that one holds in their KKW cert is tied to their dojang and not to the KKW itself. Certainly, one could ask what any dan certificate gains you beyond a certificate and a card. At least the ability to look someone up is one thing that other certs don't have.

A school being a KKW school simply means that it can provide its students with a recognized cert. Nothing more. The value of the certification lays in the instructor who signed off on it and the practitioner who holds it, which is very quickly determined, certification or not.

The idea that it lends one credibility is false, since they dont actually test the people below a certain rank, all you gotta do is get a signature from someone else that paid them money

The lending of credibility is in the mind of the consumer, not the content of the certificate. The consumer is generally ignorant, but for those that are inclined to check credentials, the KKW cert is a plus. Anything that builds consumer confidence is a benefit for a school in a difficult economic climb.

Also, how much genuine credibility does any certification have? Plenty of people have high school diplomas (some college degrees) who are illiterate. But a literate holder of a GED will nearly always be passed over for the holder of a high school diploma, and certainly for someone with a diploma and a degree. But neither of those truly means that the person is qualified. ASE certification is certainly legitamate, and there are plenty of crap mechanics out there that have it. But every garage and service center proudly displays the sign, as it clicks switches in the mind of the consumer.

they only actually test what? candidates for 8th and above?

they just take the money and issue the card.

Sorry, but this "the KKW way or the highway" stuff irks me to no end

Martial artists should not make themselves slaves to a political group

It is the responsibility of the instructors who can issue KKW certs below eighth dan to conduct legitamate tests. Given that most of them collect a fee far and above the Kukkiwon's fee of 120.00 USD, I place a far higher responsibility (and much greater part of the blame) squarely on their collective shoulders.

As for the KKW or the highway, it doesnt' irk me; I agree to disagree agreeably and continue doing what I'm doing.

As for the last sentence, I agree wholeheartedly.

Daniel