KT:...is there a point?

[Clark Kent]

...is there a point?
By Florian Lang - Thu, 27 Dec 2007 04:03:13 GMT
Originally Posted at: KenpoTalk
====================

All right, I've got something that I need to discuss, as I feel rather conflicted about pursuing my study of kenpo. In particular, this refers to self-defense techniques. Not that I am not trolling or trying to start an argument here, but this is a serious problem I have as a martial artist.

...do they work? And I don't mean work in theory. I mean in practice, in an alive setting, against a resisting opponent. A lot of kenpo techniques seem to be the "stand there and don't move while I hit you" type. What if your opponent resists? What if he jumps back or to the side? What if he hits back?

I ran a few tests using three basic self-defense techniques: delayed sword, alternating maces, and sword of destruction. The reason I chose these is because I have known each for years, and have practiced them very diligently over the past few months. A friend assisted me, and was geared up in headgear and a cup. This friend has VERY little martial arts training, just a few lessons of TKD and BJJ.

In essence, he would attack me with a random attack, either a right lapel grab, a push, or a left roundhouse punch, attempting to actually execute the technique on me. I would counter with the correct self-defense technique and attempt to use it on him properly (with certai obvious modifications for safety of course; no handswords to the throat!)

The thing was that EVERY time he attacked me, I was NEVER able to complete the self-defense technique. He always jumped back or to the side, or counterattacked, at the block or after the first strike. Now, the problem then, is this... they don't seem to work!

Further fueling my point is kenpo sparring: when kenpoists spar, it SHOULD, in theory, look like their training. However, it just looks like any other kickboxing to me. So, why don't they use the self-defense techniques in sparring? Why, when someone throws a hook, do they just block and counter with the other hand, or a kick, rather than using Sword of Destruction? My opinion is that the techniques are ineffective.

However, I have heard that the kenpo techniques are studied not for practical application, but just to learn the principles... is this their purpose? Why not do this through techniques that actually work?

Also, why are the kenpo techniques needlessly complicated? As an example, let's go to Sword of Destruction again. Couldn't one just teach a student to block, and just practice the block seperately from the strikes? That way they could use whatever strikes work for that situation, rather than moving robotically through a preset sequence of movements that could be a bad choice in their situation.

Another problem I have with the self-defense techniques are the idea that your opponent will have certain reactions to movements. One of the ones I see a lot is the "hit him in the groin, and he bends over, stunned". Yes, I've seen this happen before on groin hits. I've also seen other guys who don't do this. For example, I myself don't. I lean to the side a bit, and my hands don't shoot down to my groin either, as a past kenpo instructor told me "everyone does". I've seen guys on whom a groin kick has no effect but to make them angry! So, the idea of using one hit to force a guy to move and set up your next move makes no sense...

Once again, I'm not trying to make trouble, and I realize this post could be taken very negatively. I just want to know if I've wasted a MASSIVE amount of time one kenpo. Is there any point to self-defense techniques? Or are they just "filler" for classes? Are they practiced alive by anyone, or does everyone just execute them while their partner just stands there and does nothing? Is Parker Kenpo no more than LARP?

I'd LOVE to hear explanations for this stuff, why it works and such, as I really would like to continue kenpo. However, as much as I like the art, I can't continue in good conscience until I feel this issue has been resolved and my questions put to rest. This is because I was already involved with two martial arts training experiences in the past where I was taught garbage and told it would work, and I would really hate to repeat those experiences. So, can anyone explain any of these points?


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[kaizasosei]

i think the moves work if used at the right time. either you go for types of sparring or it's 100% real. i don't think it's easy to mess around somewhere in between.
i have heard mrparker mention implementing hip movements.
i think you have to get one good strike in first to start tooling on the opponent.


getting struck(no matter what style) tends to stun people. hard enough it will bounce the brain and cause knockout or blackout.
same with choking or throwing techniques.

basically, you are saying that you have a knife that cuts fine but you are not able to cut the target because the target is moving. because if the knife don't cut, there's no point to begin with- but if it's because the target is too quick, then it is a speed issue.
when a metal knife hit a watermelon or even a pineapple, it pierces or may cut. that is a fact of physics. the same goes for our bodies and their strong and weak points. there is no way around this than to use martial art techniques of movement and evasion(or armor)- on the other hand - one also wins by picking off the vunerable points in the opponents defese as well as anatomy,
so the actual game is 'who can hit the other without getting hit' a clean hit so to say...
however, this is not just a game- this is fighting. that means there are psychological elements, spiritual/moral- therefore the real game of quite tricky.

i also think that the lack of confidence in martial arts techniques also comes from imperfect stances- the kamae or stance is really important i believe.

however, just as you could say that you were not able to do damage on the partner, shouldn't it also work the other way around that you also manage to come away unhurt- because for selfdefense, that may be all that is needed. but i do think it is important to be able to hurt. but true skill is born from the desire to not hurt, because it's easy to hurt if someone lets you...

i hope im not too off on this post...although it sounds like im tossing out form and style to be effective, actually i believe form and power go hand in hand.

 

[Hand Sword]

Well,

It sounds like a mind has already been made up, and no answer will be appropriate to persuade otherwise. Plus, I sense some hyperbole with this poster. So......I would say, since thei mind is made up, and conclusions are set in....It is a waste of time to continue training. Take up the MMA for the real thing.

 

[gblnking]

When I got out of the Army I joined a nationally recognized martial art school. One night we were training in “self-defense” using kicks against an attacker. I became a little frustrated with the robotic way we were practicing so I picked up the kicking pad and charged at my opponent. I wont attest to my training partner’s overall martial ability but I did know for a fact that he was almost three belt ranks higher then me and that he had competed with varying success in sparring competitions. Basically when I charged him he froze like a deer caught in headlights. I did the unexpected and he pointed that out to me. He whined that I hadn’t attacked him in the “proper” fashion. He didn’t even move out of my way, at his level he was learning defense’s that were complicated enough to require around three to four techniques per counter, he simply got confused because he was so used to training in a regimented way.

Over the years I’ve found this to be the norm vs. the exception. Schools that advertised, “realistic self-defense” or “the best self defense” were usually the schools that fell farthest from the truth. Again most always progressed a person up to extremely complicated and time-consuming techniques where they should have been developing an individual’s sensitivity and awareness. (But those aren’t very flowery and exciting things to develop)

As of late I’m training in a much more simplistic style that takes longer to learn the basics. The “self-defense” isn’t complicated and is pretty uniform. It focuses more on distance, closing distance, etc. vs. flowery movements that are more for awing a crowd then actual practical application.

A previous poster intoned that the article was written more out of sour grapes then a real complaint. But I will side with the article because we invest a considerable amount of money and time into learning martial arts and we are so many times let down.

 

[Hand Sword]

:erg:

 

[Hand Sword]

Finding something that is perfect for a thread like this while reading, I came across a quote from Miyamoto Musashi in his book of 5 rings. That quote is : "There are many people who, even when studying the Way of the Martial Arts, think that these skills will not be useful in real situations. In fact, the true Way of the Martial Arts is to train so that these skills are useful at any time, and to teach these skills so that they will be useful in all things." (The Book Of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi, translated by William Sxcott Wilson Pg.40)

The truth expressed perfectly! :asian: