Krav Maga Knife Defenses.

[Jonathan Randall]

Krav Maga Knife Defenses - what do you think of them? Since the majority I've seen are block, parry, and only later disarm if possible, I consider them to be more effective than many, if not most of the defenses I learned in more "traditional" arts. Thoughts? Criticisms?

 

[MJS]

I think they're pretty good for the most part. I like the idea of the simultaneous block/strike, as this may buy you some time to better gain control of the weapon arm.

Mike

 

[Loki]

I think it's the best formula. Move away from the imminent while attacking, gain control over the knife arm, disarm.

Blocking only occurs when the attack is too sudden for you to get out of the way, usually in close quarters upwards or downwards stabbing, and with a surprise slash.

 

[Selfcritical]

I think it's the best formula. Move away from the imminent while attacking, gain control over the knife arm, disarm.

Blocking only occurs when the attack is too sudden for you to get out of the way, usually in close quarters upwards or downwards stabbing, and with a surprise slash.

I'll have to see the level two Krav knife defenses before i pass judgement. Everything i've seen in Krav level one for knife defense Does. Not. Work. Ever. I've tried each of them with the people from my kali class and have expierienced a 100% failure rate. The straight inside blocks versus the high and low line are pretty damn ineffective, and the hip movement/footwork (from the "360 defense drill) is the exact opposite of what you want to do

For clarification-
360 defense drill defense against the low line thrust
- shoot hips as far back as possible, jamming forearm down to hit the incoming forearm perpindicular to the incoming force as hard as you can while maintaining a 90 degree bend to your arm.

Kali basic basic knife tapping defense against the same thrust
- arm wipes from high left to low right in circular motion, contacting along the forearm, moving the attack offline. Once off center mass left hand jams the elbow to stutter the return motion. At this same you sidestep, moving your hips off the line of attack in the other vector from the line of attack.

Notice these are both very basic defenses that take at most a minute or two to teach. The one i learned in krav utterly robs me of mobility, keeps me on the line of the attack such that any continued movement from the attack places the knife in my intestines, and doesn't end with any control of the attacker. Even if i incorparate a strike along with this technique i can't use rotation to generate any power, so my percentage of knockout or stun is exceedingly low.

By contrast, the footwork with the knife tapping defense is agnostic to my opponents reach or continued motion(actually if he cotinues the direction of the original attack it aids me), generates rotation for an angular attack on the spot, and leaves my feet in a position to exit in the window i just opened up outside of his weapon hand.

If there's better work in level two, i'd love to see it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'll have to see the level two Krav knife defenses before i pass judgement. Everything i've seen in Krav level one for knife defense Does. Not. Work. Ever. I've tried each of them with the people from my kali class and have expierienced a 100% failure rate. The straight inside blocks versus the high and low line are pretty damn ineffective, and the hip movement/footwork (from the "360 defense drill) is the exact opposite of what you want to do

For clarification-
360 defense drill defense against the low line thrust
- shoot hips as far back as possible, jamming forearm down to hit the incoming forearm perpindicular to the incoming force as hard as you can while maintaining a 90 degree bend to your arm.

Kali basic basic knife tapping defense against the same thrust
- arm wipes from high left to low right in circular motion, contacting along the forearm, moving the attack offline. Once off center mass left hand jams the elbow to stutter the return motion. At this same you sidestep, moving your hips off the line of attack in the other vector from the line of attack.

Notice these are both very basic defenses that take at most a minute or two to teach. The one i learned in krav utterly robs me of mobility, keeps me on the line of the attack such that any continued movement from the attack places the knife in my intestines, and doesn't end with any control of the attacker. Even if i incorparate a strike along with this technique i can't use rotation to generate any power, so my percentage of knockout or stun is exceedingly low.

By contrast, the footwork with the knife tapping defense is agnostic to my opponents reach or continued motion(actually if he cotinues the direction of the original attack it aids me), generates rotation for an angular attack on the spot, and leaves my feet in a position to exit in the window i just opened up outside of his weapon hand.

If there's better work in level two, i'd love to see it.

That is really my gripe with some (not all) of the Krav Maga knife disarms as well. Maintain position on the line of attack is going to get you hurt! They still can work but I cannot get over staying on the line of the knife as it is coming at me. However, I like Krav Maga overall as an art and I like the general intensity of their training that I have witnessed first hand.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Loki]

I'd like to clarify something before this thread continues: the defense you're describing is supposed to be instinctive against an attack from very close range. You WILL NOT have time to pull off anything besides throwing your hips back and blocking. The situation you describe (the Kali principle) could be a fitting reaction to a situation where you see it coming, but in this case, you're standing about a foot from the guy and *suddenly* he pulls a knife. It's a last ditch defense, not something you'd try given more time/planning.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am familiar with the theoretical response. However, I am still moving my hips off to the side even if I cannot get fully out of the way. The technique can be effective but I do not like staying on a direct line with any bladed weapon that is coming my way. If I can throw my hips back I certainly can try and get them off to the side. Having said that I like Krav Maga and it has alot to offer. The handgun defenses are very good and one of the core idea's of stunning your opponent before any locking technique is very, very sound and something that I employ myself.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Selfcritical]

I'd like to clarify something before this thread continues: the defense you're describing is supposed to be instinctive against an attack from very close range. You WILL NOT have time to pull off anything besides throwing your hips back and blocking. The situation you describe (the Kali principle) could be a fitting reaction to a situation where you see it coming, but in this case, you're standing about a foot from the guy and *suddenly* he pulls a knife. It's a last ditch defense, not something you'd try given more time/planning.

They both initiate from the same range, and IMHO, the rotation is much quicker than throwing the hips back. It also has the advantage of being non-diagnostic( the krav defense is one that most pratcitioners will only use when they're aware it's a knife attack. Twisting offline is a valid response irrespective of the nature of the attack), and the less recognition required for a response, the quicker you should be able to execute it. Further, you generate power for your counterstun immediately with hip rotation. By throwing your hips back, you insure that you can't generate any power beside what your arm can supply for your counterattack. The defense I'm desribing here is primarily used at extreme close quarters.

 

[MJS]

Personally, I'd rather sidestep, than push my hips back. IMO, pushing the hips back, we're relying or hoping that we've moved back far enough and that the block was successfull, whereas sidestepping, takes our body out of the line of the initial attack.

Mike

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I'd like to clarify something before this thread continues: the defense you're describing is supposed to be instinctive against an attack from very close range. You WILL NOT have time to pull off anything besides throwing your hips back and blocking. The situation you describe (the Kali principle) could be a fitting reaction to a situation where you see it coming, but in this case, you're standing about a foot from the guy and *suddenly* he pulls a knife. It's a last ditch defense, not something you'd try given more time/planning.

Good point - and that's how I took it as well. Also, KM which is an overall system for Self-Defence and military combatives, should not be compared for sophistication to duelling based systems of knife or stick that have been developed over generations specifically for combat with those tools. Just shows that cross-training is often a good idea.