Korean vs. Japanese

[brad]

Prices of kagums will vary somewhat with the master. Each master is allowed to add whatever markup he feels is fair to his cost for the sword. So a kagum might be $125, or it might be $180. In any case you can only get federation kagums through the federation, as they are of a special design just for the federation, and feature WHDGDF guards.

Jingums vary even more in price, as the same rule applies; a master can add whatever markup he regards as fair to his cost. Again, the only place you can get a federation jingum is through the federation, and federation jingums have WHDGDF logos incorporated into the guard, fittings and saya.
The lowest I have seen the cheapest WHDGDF jingum (bamboo/flower model) go for here is $1200; the most expensive (with lots of bling) is over $2500. We have not been able to determine if there is in fact any functional difference in the blades of the $1200 model vs. the $2500 model. However, using MAS swords as a reference point, the most expensive WHDGDF jingum adds about $1000 of bling compared to the basic model, so it's possible that there isn't in fact a significant difference in the two blades, but there might be. We're not sure.

In any case, a jingum's primary differences from most katanas i have had the chance to cut with were (1) jingums do not have grooves; (2) jingums always have the handle held on by one peg and a bolt (the end cap is screwed on) for lots more security; (3) jingums are differentially hardened (real hamon), which means they have a hard, very sharp, but more fragile edge than a through hardened sword (though many katanas are differentially hardened as well); (4) jingums are generally, at least around here, only available in one length (28 inches)

If you are at a WHDGDF cutting event, in most cases they can see from across the room whether you are using a federation sword. Sometimes they enforce the no-non-federation sword rule, sometimes they don't.

 

[brad]

And i forgot to add, WHDGDF jingums are made in Korea.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have had the opportunity to train with some rather old Korean swords (which were I imagine very expensive) as well as some of the newer Japanese inspired jingum. In fact I have a couple of them in my collection. (older ones)

Now the ones that I have are nice swords and some of the ones that I have handled are okay. I found the ones sold to Kuk Sol Won practitioners to be poor. (basically junk: sorry

) I have no knowledge on the WHDGDF current training swords and jingum. Though in my opinon bling is worthless as it all comes down to the functionality of the blade and the quality of sword smithing that went into it.

I have also had the opportunity to handle some of mantiss swords jingum and they were just okay by my standards. (which certainly have changed alot since I took started working in Japanese Arts) Still, I have handled moderately priced Japanese swords let's say in the $7,000 to $30,000 price range and there is a drastic differance in overall quality. In reality you sometimes due get what you pay for!

I remember my first iaito thinking how great it was. I only realized later after purchasing a really nice one how much junk it actually was! With the cost of swords being so much enter into this slowly and purchase what you can easily afford at first and then move up to a nicer one as your skill gets better!

However having said that the basic intro line of mantiss jingum or probably the WHDGDF jingum will probably work well for Korean Gum training if that is the system you are studying. Also always go through your instructor when purchasing a sword as that in general will save you alot of headaches!!! (plus even if they only make $50 on the transaction you are supporting your group)

 

[howard]

And, sadly, most of the swords that you'll see out there aren't even Japanese in origin, but rather, Chinese copies of the Japanese design.

That's true, but there are practical reasons for that.

First, a true Japanese sword, made by licensed artisans (smith, polisher, habaki maker, scabbard / handle maker) in Japan, costs a fortune. Their production is tightly regulated. Collectors bid up the prices to the point that they are unaffordable, practically speaking, for most of us mere mortals.

The quality of some Chinese production katanas has risen steadily over the past few years. Bugei and Hanwei (who make Bugei's swords) are a couple of vendors who offer quality Japanese-style swords made in China by traditional Japanese methods. For most of us, these blades will suffice for kata / hyung and cutting practice.

Getting swords out of Japan / Korea is kind of rough legally.

I believe that, in general, if you have the financial wherewithal to buy a Japanese sword, the seller will take care of the legalities / red tape of having it shipped out of Japan. Where you'd have more trouble would be in trying to take a sword you already own into, and then back out of, Japan. That can be a legal and bureaucratic nightmare. Really not worth the trouble in most cases unless you're talking about an iaito that's not steel.

We are fortunate in that we are able to obtain hand-forged swords from a private smith in Korea for our sword art. He is a friend of the head of our kwan. The swords are heavily influenced by the design of the katana. They are differentially heat-treated and hand-polished, so the hamon is clearly visible. Some have grooves, some do not. Some are live blades, some are not sharp (equivalent to an iaito in that respect, but different in that they're made of hand-forged steel, not a non-steel alloy). Lead time is generally 3 - 4 months. The fittings are very nice, and hold up well to regular practice.

 

[cdunn]

That's true, but there are practical reasons for that.

First, a true Japanese sword, made by licensed artisans (smith, polisher, habaki maker, scabbard / handle maker) in Japan, costs a fortune. Their production is tightly regulated. Collectors bid up the prices to the point that they are unaffordable, practically speaking, for most of us mere mortals.

The quality of some Chinese production katanas has risen steadily over the past few years. Bugei and Hanwei (who make Bugei's swords) are a couple of vendors who offer quality Japanese-style swords made in China by traditional Japanese methods. For most of us, these blades will suffice for kata / hyung and cutting practice.

Absolutely - Were I not planning on participating in WHDGF events in the future, I'd be saving for a Bugei or a MAS sword myself. However, the old advice of buyer, be aware applies. Ensure that you're buying a blade, not a wallhanger before you plop down your cash for them. There's plenty already floating around here on how to tell the difference.

I believe that, in general, if you have the financial wherewithal to buy a Japanese sword, the seller will take care of the legalities / red tape of having it shipped out of Japan. Where you'd have more trouble would be in trying to take a sword you already own into, and then back out of, Japan. That can be a legal and bureaucratic nightmare. Really not worth the trouble in most cases unless you're talking about an iaito that's not steel.

We are fortunate in that we are able to obtain hand-forged swords from a private smith in Korea for our sword art. He is a friend of the head of our kwan. The swords are heavily influenced by the design of the katana. They are differentially heat-treated and hand-polished, so the hamon is clearly visible. Some have grooves, some do not. Some are live blades, some are not sharp (equivalent to an iaito in that respect, but different in that they're made of hand-forged steel, not a non-steel alloy). Lead time is generally 3 - 4 months. The fittings are very nice, and hold up well to regular practice.

Yes, if you can afford an actual nihonto or Korean blade, you can afford the process of getting it out of the country. But it makes it relatively undesirable for the smiths in Korea (and doubly so Japan) to even want to attempt to make lower end blades for export.

You are a lucky man to have a custom smith at your call. Glad to hear he treats you well.

 

[howard]

You are a lucky man to have a custom smith at your call. Glad to hear he treats you well.

Hi,

Thanks, we feel the same way.

I'm planning on being back in Korea for training in April (mostly Hapkido, but some sword work as well)... I'll try to find out more about this smith while I'm there. All I know now is that his surname is Kim (really narrows it down, right?) and that he lives in Daegu.

 

[cdunn]

Hi,

Thanks, we feel the same way.

I'm planning on being back in Korea for training in April (mostly Hapkido, but some sword work as well)... I'll try to find out more about this smith while I'm there. All I know now is that his surname is Kim (really narrows it down, right?) and that he lives in Daegu.

Only 22% of Korea is named Kim. It does narrow it down! :xtrmshock

 

[brad]

Please keep in mind that if you are a student at a WHDGDF school in North America, there is a push to deny use of non-Federation blades at formal WHDGDF events (Dan tests, etc). This is partly a safety issue, as Federation swords are specifically designed to cut bamboo safely. To some unofficial extent it may also be a support-the-school issue, as you can only get Federation swords through your master.

 

[matt.m]

just like the "Major" differences between o'sensei hapkido and moo sul kwan hapkido it is the footwork. The same with the major diff. between shotokan vs. tkd and yudo vs. judo.

It is all about the mindset and intention of the technique.