KOMS meeting in la, ca.

[puunui]

By the kkw rep at the 21st FIC and the pres of the ctu.

Maybe the CTU president should have told his membership. Do you think that the CTU membership knew you were not a member?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you are going to intentionally disrespect both the Kukkiwon and me by intentionally referring to the Kukkiwon by an improper name, then I am done talking to you. As far as I am concerned, you no longer exist.

Thats hillarious. If anyone who uses the term "kukki" on this board doesnt exist to you, then you're going to find it very lonely around here. Where do you think I learnt the abbreviation? I suggest you use the 'ignore' function (assuming there is one)

 

[msmitht]

Maybe the CTU president should have told his membership. Do you think that the CTU membership knew you were not a member?

I am a member. Have supported their tourneys. Even referee chairman at one. What else?

 

[miguksaram]

1. The kkw will be making dvd's and manuals for curriculum in tkd schools. Good for the art but don't think many will like changing their existing curriculum. I like it. One standard for all.

Please help me here. I thought they already had a curriculum in place for TKD schools and as long as you met their minimum requirements of the curriculum, you are free to add in whatever else you wanted for your own school. What will be different now?

2. Starting 2012 you will not be able to process kkw certs unless your school is a koms member and you have attended a master instructor course. That was made perfectly clear.

So there will have to be a membership fee now to be part of the KKW?

3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present.

Why not? That seems a bit harsh on the Korean Masters side to state something like that.

It seems like that KOMS will do more harm than good for the KKW. What is the Korean equivalent of KOMS? Meaning what do SK TKD Masters have to do that is similar to what KOMS is demanding?

 

[miguksaram]

Anything that rids us of belt factories will be a good thing.

The solution is simple. Give everyone a black belt as soon as they join. That way the parents won't have to worry about Johnny feeling bad because his friends are getting a new colored belt and he isn't and the student will just focus on learning the curriculum and not on the cloth around his waist.

 

[Master Dan]

Yes. It is their reputation that they are trying to fix. They will be offering more courses and take a more active role in promoting TKD unity. Things will only go downhill for those who do not meet basic standards. Why would anyone complain that they do not want to go to a master instructors course? Are they above learning? Is it really that hard to become a student again? Or are their pocket's too full and bellies too fat? I have made it to 2 masters courses, 6 poomsae seminars and 5 coaching/referee seminars in the past 3 years. I only have one assistant and I can do it.

How wonderful for you that you have the money and time to do all that and I quite agree with continuing education even my GM before he died expounded the need to continue to learn every day for himself. However I have many senior master friends with 30-40 years plus that are adament about KKS can kiss off if they think they are going to make them jump through new hoops to recomend and file applications for rank advancement.

It is a extreme financial hardship for me to get outside to attend but did anyway and plan to go at lease every two years because it is good for me and wonderful to be around the people who get off thier A----- to attend it is good for my students and I hope to assist other masters and encourage all to attend.

I feel KKW heart is in the right place always teaching with much love and trying to be helpful. But when I hear comments like the author of this forum thread stating the the Korean Masters do not want the American Masters to join?? That greatly concerns me. I am going to ask for a clarification of what is meant by this.

While many good Masters have done a good job for a long period of time here developing good students and creating a legacy of TKD MA there are many who have allowed the root of TKD to dilute to the point of turning out students that to be kind would be to say they are pitiful at best. Also there seems to be a very concerted effort to eliminate influence by the Kwan's or individualized pockets of teaching based on a Pioneer or individual masters methods. I understand and agree with the need to have one consistant standard globaly but to attempt to stomp out loyalty to the master or gm that gave you life and ability seems against the basic philosophy of all MA relationship of master and student/deciple?

While I understand the different relationship between the WTF and KKW it would seem in KKW best interest to work closer with WTF in forming a joint venture to work with the IOC USOC to form a better NGB in the US to gain better trust, freindship and national participation that would convince senior masters to participate in the reeducation? repatriotation?

If we are returning to the old days of descrimination between Korean and non Korean practitioners I and many others will have something to say and do and KKW will find its income greatly reduced.

For now I am going to do the best I can to keep up because it is worthwhile to do.

 

[miguksaram]

I believe they train one hour per day, five days per week. So that is about 250 hours of class time.

Plus some train as part of their PE class and this does not include any time spent outside the norm or Saturday classes.

 

[miguksaram]

You would have to admit that the reputation of tkd in general needs fixing, and if the majority of tkd practitioners are kukki affiliated (which I dont believe, but Im told is the case), then the kukki would have to take some resposibility for that. I commend the fact they are trying to, if thats the case.

Why should KKW take responsibility? From what I have heard, if you test at the KKW they are pretty strict in what they do and will fail you. If you want to blame or have someone take responsibility then we should start with general attitude (at least in the states) of not wanting to hurt someone's self esteem because they didn't pass the first time. That would be a great start.

 

[Master Dan]

Spent 3 hours on Sunday night with the new kkw president. Had an interesting time with mixed feelings about some of the masters/gms there. Rather than give a full blown account of what went on I will sum up the important details.
1. The kkw will be making dvd's and manuals for curriculum in tkd schools. Good for the art but don't think many will like changing their existing curriculum. I like it. One standard for all.
2. Starting 2012 you will not be able to process kkw certs unless your school is a koms member and you have attended a master instructor course. That was made perfectly clear.
3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.
4. Get ready for more seminars
5. All of the korean masters from my town did not like it when they saw me having coffe with the kkw president. My late gms friends spotted me and invited me to join them. Little did i Know who else was there. Good thing I bowed low

I would like you to explain in detail what you mean by Korean Masters do not wnat american school owners to join?

Who are these masters? what influence do they have over KKW? Are they Korean?American DoJang owners that realize they will have an advantage over American DoJang owners who will not do the training and recieve the lisence to recomend rank applications? So far the seminars have done a good job of creating an english speaking focus and fair evaluation and instruction for all. I hope we are not going to gravitate to a Korean and non Korean divide like the old days of segreation of equal but seperate??

Please communicate more on this?

I have warned my other friends that if your competitor eventually gains the ability to recieve KKW rank advancment for thier students and you cannot you will have a problem?

There have been far to many low rank people going out on thier own that turned thier back on thier masters and found paper mills to aprove thier applications some may have to eat crow and return to someone who has the training and authority appove thier students?

 

[Master Dan]

Any 3rd dan and up can take the Master instructor seminar. You can not get the cert until you pass the physical/Written exam + get 4th Dan (if 3rd).
Both Courses I attended had KKW academy instructors who were 7th, 8th and 9th Dans. If you pick up the Textbook of tkd poomsae, By Kkw, you will see all of the seminar instructors. They are the ones on the dvd and in the pictures. GM park, Jeom beum, GM Hwang, In Sik and others. They are AWESOME!!!
DOWN WITH THE MC DOJANGS AND BELT FACTORIES!!!!!

I would have to agree with you all the people I have seen teaching are top notch and wonderful to be with. I think the end of the Mc Dojangs a Belt factories will come when people realize thier 3rd and 4th dan ranks will not give them the right to test and reocmend for rank advancement unless they pass the written and physical exam for a license in the future?

While I want to keep up financially it is very hard to travel from my location the large certificate shows an expiration after two years? the hard wallet card does not. It would also be nice to know if any changes have been made to the printed text book before each seminar.

 

[Master Dan]

3. The korean masters do not want americans school owners to join. I was the token white master. There was one black, 3 mexican and one armerian master there. We had our own translator as the meeting was in korean. There were 90 korean masters/gms present. The announcement on the ctu events page was the only thing in hangul. This was supposed to be about unifying tkd! Shame on them. The kkw officials even wondered where the american masters were.


This is what brothers me and alot of folks, when you say they do not want any Americans to join. This says they want the money to stay with Korean people, why. If they are looking to really unifieed TKD should they not want all the American Masters here to be a big part of this for them. It looks like the old Hitler thing we are superior and you are nothing.:asian:

This is what concerns me the old crap of the 70's even to the 90's of descrimination against non Korean practitioners they want our money but shun to give equal consideration? I find much of the seminar material and speakers to be nothing new or non essential or to just McDojang oriented but the KKW instructors are great and I go for the people who show up they love TKD and it is wonderful to be around them.

So far I have seen a majority of 1st to 3rd Dan showing up beyond 6th Dan very little so possibly this trend has changed in the last 12 months but so far I feel a very large majority of senior masters reluctant to bow down and do this. I suppose when it comes to financially do it to compete or go independent it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[msmitht]

I would like you to explain in detail what you mean by Korean Masters do not wnat american school owners to join?

Who are these masters? what influence do they have over KKW? Are they Korean?American DoJang owners that realize they will have an advantage over American DoJang owners who will not do the training and recieve the lisence to recomend rank applications? So far the seminars have done a good job of creating an english speaking focus and fair evaluation and instruction for all. I hope we are not going to gravitate to a Korean and non Korean divide like the old days of segreation of equal but seperate??

Please communicate more on this?

I have warned my other friends that if your competitor eventually gains the ability to recieve KKW rank advancment for thier students and you cannot you will have a problem?

There have been far to many low rank people going out on thier own that turned thier back on thier masters and found paper mills to aprove thier applications some may have to eat crow and return to someone who has the training and authority appove thier students?

After re reading I realize my words were a bit harsh. The ctu, which was the group that brought the koms speaker and kkw pres, is primarily made up of korean masters. There are many other non koreans in the org, but where were they? The other non koreans there were part of the ctu but all ran schools for/under them(except master aguilar). The listing on the ctu website had the dinner listed, but in korean. It was the only event not in english.

 

[Master Dan]

this is how it was during the 80's/90's. Only certain Korean Masters could promote so they held the market on certifying people. They district out the state and depending on where you lived, that was the one who gouged you to certify your students.

This created ALOT of resentment toward Korean Masters and KKW that I saw. In fact, my fist instructor told them to shove it when the Grand puba decided to tell him he had to be present at testings and wanted his cut on top of the fee for the KKW cert.

Looks like we may be going back to the way it used to be.

There are two sides to looking at this? On the one hand purely looking at it in financial terms I agree and many others do to But!!!! Going back to a more traditional MA view if you had the honor and privilage of being one of the first promenent students of a Pioneer who was greatly respected and well proven on a global basis the relationship was of love and loyalty for life as long as he lives and to care for him in his old age.

We owed our lives to him because he saved ours on many occasions literally. So I worked for free paid the additional fees which were not outrageous out of love loyalty and respect. I passed on 100% my student testing fees to him for life untill his passing. I my students and thier students are his legacy.

This relationship in America is all but gone for alot of reasons and much of it due to bad Masters who did not teach or practice the life style part of the relationship of master/student and only focused on the money side. All of that has come home to roost and KKW if it wants to repair this will have to give much to get much.

MA in America has been reduced to a shopers market where the buyer thinks they know best and sad to say sometimes they do?

 

[miguksaram]

This relationship in America is all but gone for alot of reasons and much of it due to bad Masters who did not teach or practice the life style part of the relationship of master/student and only focused on the money side. All of that has come home to roost and KKW if it wants to repair this will have to give much to get much.

MA in America has been reduced to a shopers market where the buyer thinks they know best and sad to say sometimes they do?

I disagree. Actually there seems to be more loyal following today than what I remember growing up in the martial arts. I believe this is due to a couple of things. First American consumers tend to do a bit more homework than before. So when they find a school that they like they tend to stick with it. Secondly is because the shift from a more adult oriented activity to more kid oriented activity. I can only speak as a person starting out in 1980, where there was only one "kid" class available and the rest of the time you worked, sweated and yes...bled, with the adults. Most Dojos/Dojangs that I heard of or witnessed myself were not quite "kid friendly". So you had a few loyal adults. Now that you have kids involved, many instructors (good or bad) build a relationship with the kid and the parents tend to become loyal to that instructor. And we can definitely see that kid ration taking classes far exceeds the adult ratio taking class even back in the early years.

I'm actually glad shoppers do homework and I especially love the ones that come in with the know it all attitude, because they are actually the easiest to sell to.

 

[Master Dan]

I disagree. Actually there seems to be more loyal following today than what I remember growing up in the martial arts. I believe this is due to a couple of things. First American consumers tend to do a bit more homework than before. So when they find a school that they like they tend to stick with it. Secondly is because the shift from a more adult oriented activity to more kid oriented activity. I can only speak as a person starting out in 1980, where there was only one "kid" class available and the rest of the time you worked, sweated and yes...bled, with the adults. Most Dojos/Dojangs that I heard of or witnessed myself were not quite "kid friendly". So you had a few loyal adults. Now that you have kids involved, many instructors (good or bad) build a relationship with the kid and the parents tend to become loyal to that instructor. And we can definitely see that kid ration taking classes far exceeds the adult ratio taking class even back in the early years.

I'm actually glad shoppers do homework and I especially love the ones that come in with the know it all attitude, because they are actually the easiest to sell to.

Good points I agree I guess I am more concerned about the ones who know little or nothing and want to interfere with how instruction should be done.

However the loyalty I am refering to is not parent to Master or child to master but more young adult to adult to master and the responsibility of the master to specifically be responsable for the safety and well being of all his students beyond a financial business only relationship.

 

[miguksaram]

Good points I agree I guess I am more concerned about the ones who know little or nothing and want to interfere with how instruction should be done.

Ahhh...sideline coaches. Yes we have a few of those at the school. We have subtle and not so subtle ways to deal with them. Subtle...we ask them "Don't you have some shopping to do?"...not so subtle "Until I see you in here taking classes and earning a black belt, please do not interrupt my class. Thank you."

 

[puunui]

This created ALOT of resentment toward Korean Masters and KKW that I saw.

There is another side of this story which many americans do not appreciate or understand, and that is that many of these Korean born instructors face racism every day of their lives. Sometimes it is subtle and other times it is not. I remember for example once we were leaving a Korean restaurant at a USTU event when some drunk white American starting pulling his eyes to make the slanted and made all kinds of racist remarks to the group of Korean born seniors. The seniors tried to ignore him and all got into their cars and left. But that sort of thing.

Immigrant groups often form associations or band together in an effort to obtain some comfort and security for this sort of stuff. That is why there are little Italy, Chinatown, Koreatown, Japantown, etc. in many cities. Another aspect is the formation of associations or groups such as the Han In Hwe (Korean Associations) which are made up primarily of Korean borns.

I am not saying that it is ok to discriminate against someone just because you got discriminated against. But there is a reason why ethnic groups form associations, and perhaps why they might feel uncomfortable when people outside their ethnic group shows up to a meeting.

 

[Master Dan]

There is another side of this story which many americans do not appreciate or understand, and that is that many of these Korean born instructors face racism every day of their lives. Sometimes it is subtle and other times it is not. I remember for example once we were leaving a Korean restaurant at a USTU event when some drunk white American starting pulling his eyes to make the slanted and made all kinds of racist remarks to the group of Korean born seniors. The seniors tried to ignore him and all got into their cars and left. But that sort of thing.

Immigrant groups often form associations or band together in an effort to obtain some comfort and security for this sort of stuff. That is why there are little Italy, Chinatown, Koreatown, Japantown, etc. in many cities. Another aspect is the formation of associations or groups such as the Han In Hwe (Korean Associations) which are made up primarily of Korean borns.

I am not saying that it is ok to discriminate against someone just because you got discriminated against. But there is a reason why ethnic groups form associations, and perhaps why they might feel uncomfortable when people outside their ethnic group shows up to a meeting.
I agree with you whole heartdley but descrimination is wrong on any level the pure form of MA surpassees all of that we must love each other and do what is right for all of us

 

[puunui]

I feel KKW heart is in the right place always teaching with much love and trying to be helpful. But when I hear comments like the author of this forum thread stating the the Korean Masters do not want the American Masters to join?? That greatly concerns me. I am going to ask for a clarification of what is meant by this.

He did clarify it and the issue seemed to resolve itself. Now you are attempting to raise it up again, for whatever reason.

While many good Masters have done a good job for a long period of time here developing good students and creating a legacy of TKD MA there are many who have allowed the root of TKD to dilute to the point of turning out students that to be kind would be to say they are pitiful at best.

Your comment made me think about this one particular practitioner at last year's Oakland course. he claims master rank and I was watching him stumble through sipjin, a form that he obviously never learned. I watched grind in the same mistake over and over, to the point where I couldn't take it and wanted to jump up and correct him. But I let it go, and left rather than continue to watch that painful display. I remember wondering whether he would be teaching that version of Sipjin, which he no doubt will be telling his students he learned at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course that he graduated from.

Also there seems to be a very concerted effort to eliminate influence by the Kwan's or individualized pockets of teaching based on a Pioneer or individual masters methods. I understand and agree with the need to have one consistant standard globaly but to attempt to stomp out loyalty to the master or gm that gave you life and ability seems against the basic philosophy of all MA relationship of master and student/deciple?

Who is doing that? I am a strong kwan relationship, and no one is asking me to stomp out my loyalty to anyone, certainly not the Kukkiwon.

 

[d1jinx]

Yes, it is a slam on USTU because by mentioning the organization's name, you imply that it was the USTU that was behind what you felt was a dirty scheme. In fact, the USTU made Kukkiwon certification more accessable to USTU members by processing them directly at the USTU headquarters, and also by holding USTU high dan promotion tests. And President Sang Lee further opened up the organization to non-Korean members, women especially, by appointing Americans to positions of leadership. If you want to speak about what SOME people did, then address those people individually rather painting with a broad brush by using the USTU name.

Sorry you feel that way. I knew you to take it that way EVEN though it wasn't so I made sure I clarified that.

You may not associate it this way, but a Large majority of TKD-in will refer to TKD in america as the USTU era, and the USAT era, and whoever else comes next. it is what it is.

And for the record, a few of the Koreans I was speaking of were at one time or another USTU state presidents and other officers within the Org during the USAT era. And no, I will not give names in a public forum to be brought back 10 years from now... the internet never dies.

sorry.