Ki, Chi, inner energy, whatever you call it

[Han-Mi]

Who knows what about Ki? Obviously, you can't post everything you know about it but, I would like to see who develops it. It is my opinion that soft arts train inside out, and hard arts train outside in. Meaning that soft arts focus on the spirit early on, and the hard arts develop it later, once their understanding of their bodies and their art has developed.

Basically I just wanted to start an open discussion about the subject. I don't know a whole lot about ki, as I am still somewhat new to the concept.
The question for my personal information that I would like to pose in this post is this: I often enter a state in which my body prepares for fighting. Recently, I have begun to accidently slip into a sub-state of this. I get the feeling that My body is ready for anything, and that I could perform at my best. Would you say that this has any basis in ki, or is it all natural. My body doing the natural gear up with adrenaline and such?

Opinions, facts, general thought and question are all welcomed and appreciated.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Just what exactly is “energy”? Let's consider the word energy in terms of how it's used in the martial arts. There are two camps: the mystical and the physical.

It should come as no surprise that there are proclaimed ‘masters’ of the martial arts who claim to channel energy into different parts of their bodies, to use it at different times for different purposes. That sounds very impressive and magical, and sets them on a much higher level than their students. Of course, they never define this energy, except by calling it by the nebulous and equally vague phrase: “life force”. But what is that? They tell us that science has yet to understand this force. Yet in this day and age when we have mapped the human genome, unraveled the mystery of DNA, can clone mammals, and have plotted out all the various parts of the brain and understand their functions, it seems like a weak argument to say that scientists cannot find this powerful and all-pervasive life force— a force that uneducated peasants have known about for thousands of years. Ki (or chi) has all the appearance of folklore and legend.

I shall tell you exactly what energy is. Energy is physical force... pressure... generated by muscular exertion or the momentum of movement— both mechanical actions. No martial art technique happens without movement of some kind. Take away the movement, and you take away the technique. Effective energy is generated by good body mechanics, understanding of timing and footwork, and good muscle control.

Knowing now what energy is, I have a question for you to ponder. Can energy be stored?

If we think of energy like electricity, and the body like a battery... then no, energy cannot be stored. It can’t be built up in your stomach, and then shot out through your arm into your enemy, knocking him on the ground. Such is the stuff of comic book heroes and bad martial arts movies. And yet there are martial arts that would have you believe this is what they can do. In the twenty years I've been involved in martial arts, I have never witnessed or felt anything that leads me to believe that there is any truth behind that point of view.

There are those who promote the idea that chi or ki can be used to stop or absorb strikes. But these are tricks, similar to those used by circus side show performers, that anyone can learn.

But if we think of energy as force, generated through physical actions, this gives us another, more realistic concept. Like a spring in a mouse trap, energy can be stored— or at least built up. When you pull back the spring on a mouse trap, and set the lever, you are building up and storing potential energy, which is released later when a mouse tries to eat the cheese. The trap is tripped, and the spring releases the energy that it had been storing, breaking the mouse’s neck.

The body’s structure can be used this way, and that is an area of serious advanced study. The spine can be twisted, the knees bent, the weight shifted, all in ways that build up energy that is not used in that moment, but used in the next. This knowledge is vital, and should be studied after the basics are understood.

Most of all, what is important is clarity of thought in these kinds of matters. If you don’t clearly understand these ideas, or if you have been deceived by someone who sounds very convincing and is trying to sell you on the idea of magic powers, then it is much harder to master these concepts.
"someone"

 

[Han-Mi]

A very well put to gether argument. What about this thought then?

My instructor has told me of a training partner/friend he used to work out with often. This friend of his was very experienced in Kung Fu(I don't know which one). One day, after trainining, they shook hands for some reason or another. His friend's hand was "almost as hot as a stove" and "was uncomfortable to hold on to." They were obviously working out very hard.
Since heat is energy, would you see this as energy that has been storred and is leaking out. Or is that a byproduct of the energy leaving the body?

Thoughts?

 

[Scout_379]

Now I KNOW I'm gonna get called out for this. But I'm leaving for a week, so bring on the skeptic comments! If this post contradicts my other posts, I understand this. I have changed in many ways since then.

I used to do some ki related stuff. But I have sort of given it up because it is simply not needed, although very interesting. I may take it up again later, but I want to develop the outer strength and general toughness right now.

When I did practice specifically inner energy type meditation, I did feel a warmth, a little ball of heat centered in the tanden, I also felt it throughout my limbs to a lesser degree. After feeling this "energy", I found I could bring it to the surface (my skin), and keep warm even though only wearing a T-shirt in the middle of winter, or during winter water training. In fact, during the moments prior to my first water training, My sensei told me to imagine a furnace in the bottom of my stomach, and I was warm in the winter water wearing gi pants only.
But I think that this energy is something you have to experience, rather than be told about. Also, meditaion is key for finding this.


Here is a little experiment everyone can try with a partner! Its the first ki related thing I did when I joined karate, although ki was not even mentioned, it got me hooked.

get a friend to stand in front of you, ignore stance, put your fist (vertical fist, so your elbow points downwards) on your friends shoulder. Using only the strength of your muscles make your arm as stiff as possible, then get your friend to bend your arm using both hands on your elbow pulling downwards.

After he/she bends your arm (if they do not, get a stronger partner), do it again. But this time, using inner stregth. Imagine water flowing from the ground, through your arm, like a fire hose, with a very strong current, to make your arm stiff, try not to use your muscles as much as you focusing on the water flowing with as much strength as you can imagine. try to keep your arm in a straight line by keeping the flow in a straight line, instead of trying to resist the force of your partner's hands pulling down.

Ask your partner to tell the difference between the two attempts.

Another experiment that comes to mind requires three people.
Standing with your feet shoulder length apart, hands hanging naturally at your sides not touching your body balled into a fist, palms facing your body. Again using only your external strength, try to resist two people, one on each side, lifting you up by your fists. strange concept, but try to stay on the ground.

then do it again. again using internal strength, imagine the same flow of water throughout your body holding it stiff and fast to the ground, imagine the water forcing you down to the ground, and get your two friends to lift you again. compare the results. Its very weird, but the person should actually feel heavier than on the first attempt.

TRY IT!

 

[8253]

I do believe that Chi can be channeled through your body to do things that maybe people think may not be possible. I believe that it can help a person overcome obsticles that normaly couldnt be surpassed. That is just my opinion though. However i do believe that a type of energy similar or the same as Ki, or Chi has been studied by Quantum Theorists. I havent had the opportunity to find out anything lately though. It may be an interesting thing to look up.

 

[Hung Fa Moose]

Well, I guess for my first post, this is a good topic.

My sifu recently began talking extensively about developing and cultivating the Qi in classes. I believe it can be used to help with many things in life. I do knwo that I have expereinced the warmth within my Daan Tien when I have played my Qi Gong breathing exercises. I was very energetic and alert when I had this feeling. Unfortnuately due to an injury, I had to stop my cultivation since I was unable to stand. My sifu has since demonstrated other postues in whoch to practice Qi Gong, I only wish I knew of them earlier. Oh well. I have resumed my training as of last Monday, and I can feel the same warmth building in my Daan Tien. It's a very.... well, no way to describe the sensation.

Unlike, DeLamar J, I do believe the Chi can be stored in the Daan Tien. From there is wells up and travels to the rest of the body via the meridians and channels. However, once it does begin to circulate, it is not good to leave it "on" or to stagnate in certain areas of the body from my understanding. So we are taught to 'wash' it off and seal it back to the Daan Tien.

Sifu taught us two basic breathing exercises used to help cultivate the Qi:
Natural Breathing and Reverse Breathing.

The way my kung fu system teaches, everything comes from inside to out. I know this is true of our physical techniques, and I have a hunch that this also applies to the energy training of our techniques.

 

[Drag'n]

Just because science hasnt proved with physical evidence the existence of a metaphysical energy doesn't mean it doesnt exist.There is still plenty of mystery in the processes of the mind and body which scientists cant yet explain.Most scientific research is dependant on the financial support of companies looking to make money.Proving ki power is not at the top of their list of priorities.
BUT, in all my years of training I have never experienced anything to prove the existence of Ki energy that can be used practically in a martial arts sense.
I trained for a year in shaolin chi gong with a respected Chinese "master" who was affilliated with the shaolin temple.We actually received certificates from the Abbot himself at the completion of the course.What a joke! The master never displayed any ability to produce any kind of "force".
He did have an uncanny ability to empty our wallets though.
While in China we witnessed chi gong demonstrations where, "masters" had iron bars and wooden staves broken over their heads and limbs. But when I zoomed in on the staves, before they were briskly carried away ,I noticed they were hollow.And wouldn't iron bend, not break?
I also spent 3 years training with a Tai chi/ chi gong instructer who had remarkable skill in propelling opponents through the air, but as DeLamar
explained , it was due to his mastery of using complex inner muscles in sincronised subtle movements, rather than any metaphysical energy.
I also trained in Aikido for a while, but again it was subtle physical movements which enabled the masters to perform seemingly amazing feats.
I have experienced tingling and heat in practise of chi gong, but more importantly I have experienced heightened levels of mental focus and physical well being.This is where I beleive the importance of such meditative practises lies: in the development of the mind, which , after all ,
is your most powerfull weapon.
However, I still do beleive in the possibility of Ki power, and would love to hear of other peoples experience of it.

 

[Denton Hines]

To further emphasize what Scout was saying; I've been in various forms of martial arts since I was very young and I've become very good at these tricks or whatever you want to call them. I'm only 5'10" and about 180, but I have yet to have any body bend my arm or lift me while doing this. I had a buddy in the marines who had me get on my knees and he put his foot in the bend of my arm and pulled on my wrist with both of his arms and still couldn't bend it. Is this spiritual energy or just the power of the human mind that science just doesn't understand yet? I don't know, but I do sit in zazen and do deep breathing exercises concentrating on my center quite often. The only way I've found these exercises not to work is if you try to resist or if your pulled off of center.
Anyway, there's also an iron ring trick to. You make a circle with your thumb and index finger and imagine that they are a solid iron ring. You have someone else try to separate them with both hands. If you stay centered (balanced) and don't try to resist they will have an awefully hard time trying to separate your fingers.

 

[Scout_379]

Just before I leave I want to warn you three and welcome to MT!

Believe me, people already know what you are talking about, and have heard it all before. Some agree, others don't. But there have been too many jokers and frauds when it comes to ki/chi. Don't try to change what others think of ki, it's not worth the coming arguements seen on all MA forums. keep it to personal experience only, and don't BS like I did when I first joined MT, you will be found out!

 

[Scout_379]

One last point before I'm gone for a week. no more MT

I think it is present in everyone, but you dont have to practice with it to be good a the MA's. I believe meditation is key for many MA's if you wish to be good at it, but not necessarily meditation about ki. Ki is very interesting once you get into it, and can help you in your training, but it is not really needed. It comes naturally, on its own. No trickery or feats are required to make you good at the martial arts.

 

[bignick]

the "unbendable arm" trick mentioned earlier...is just that a trick, it's matter of good body mechanics and leverage...when you stiffen all the muscles in your arm your doing an isometric exercise with your bicep tryin to pull your arm one way and your tricep trying to go the other...basically your fighting yourself and it makes your arm that much easier to bend...when you imagine the "water flowing like a stream" you are simply extending your arm only using muscles that extend....making it that much stronger since you're no longer fighting yourself...the same effect can be achieved without the mental imaging...just imagine your reaching for a distant object and you'll get the same effect...

 

[Scout_379]

VERY TRUE!! I agree totally, but using the mental imagery certainly did its work. nothing mystical about it. There is a scientific way to explain everything about ki. And i think you just explained one. but without that kind of knowledge, that most people lack, the use of ki by imagery can really increase a techniques efficiency. Believe it or not, I have heard what you just said from one of my own senseis! your post brought up the memory of what he said.

But can you explain the second one? the heaviness? I'm on for another hour or so, please somebody post before I leave!

 

[bignick]

i've never tried the heaviness one...and it'd be pretty hard for two friends to pick me up like that anyways...but my feeling on that actually makes me think of little kids...ever try to pick one up that didn't want to be...they just relax and go dead limp...and it's like they gained 100 pounds...if you're relaxing and becoming "dead weight"...you'll be a lot harder to pick up...no real scientific explanation there...

i posted in another thread about ki that there are two ways to look at it

the mystical energy force...or just good body mechanics(knowing the most efficeint way of moving or using your body)...

i believe the latter...but i've met a hapkido instructor who believes in the energy theory...and i can't argue with the results he gets...like i said in the other post...however you want to get there is fine...the results are probably gonna be the same...

 

[Andrew Green]

Just because science hasnt proved with physical evidence the existence of a metaphysical energy doesn't mean it doesnt exist.

Nor does it mean it does, and the burden of proof lies on those claiming it does exist, not on those saying it does not.

As a metaphysical entity it is impossible to prove that it does not exist. Along with the little gremlins with markers that live inside my monitor.

 

[Flatlander]

On a subparticle level, the manifestation of extreme energy is what forms quantum matter. Of course, this quantum matter is what makes up other particles, and becomes solid "matter" in the scale of what we can observe with the naked eye. If one tries to understand all space time as a "field" or medium through which energy can manifest, and understand that it can manifest itself in different ways, i.e., as a particle or some other force, or as a photon, and understand that all transmissions of force are actually an exchange of quantum particles, then the differences between matter and energy begin to get fuzzy. As well, matter is in fact discontinuous. It pops in and out of existance in such a way that a ball that rolls across the floor is no longer composed of the *same* particles as it was in a previous position. It may be composed of the same *type* of particles, but the actual particles have not moved. In fact, particles do not move at all. Energy moves. Particles are discontinuous manifestations of that energy.

Now, when we attempt to reconcile this with larger scale movement, it begins to seem unrealistic, but we are dealing with an order of magnitude small enough that things happen much more quickly, and on a smaller scale than our senses can interpret. However, the point was that in fact, all is energy. So, imagine that you are sitting "motionless" in a room. But the room is on the Earth, and the Earth is rotating on its axis, and revolving around the sun, and the sun is revolving around other galaxies, and the universe is expanding, and you are made up of discontinuous particles. Are you sitting motionless? There is in fact no such thing as stillness. The energy that is "you" is moving through space time according to some pattern determined by other forces or energies acting upon you which you cannot sense. The pattern that your energy follows on its path through space time is very difficult to describe, however, there is a measurable path, and is determined by the action of forces and energies upon you.

Is there room in this worldview for Ki? I think so, but I'm not certain how to reconcile that with my conciousness, yet.

 

[Tydive]

I use "Chi" as my primary martial art form so let me chime in here. I don't believe it is some "mystical force" or any of that stuff... what I do believe is that Chi is a manifestation of emotions and thoughts. In other words, Chi is intention or focus. Chi has very little to do with hitting harder, other than allowing you to be well centered and able to "see" where to strike/block/grab.

You can feel what other people are feeling. We all know people who can suck the joy out of a room just by entering it, just as some others make you feel relaxed, or loved, or whatever. Ever "feel" somebody staring at you? The main problem people have developing Chi is that they are thinking of too many things. You know that incessant chatter in the back of your head. Chi is about being present and in control of your mind/heart.

For me, Chi is being aware of the emotional states around me. I can push an emotion out from my body simply by visualizing it as a colored cloud or ray or whatever. I have demonstrated this in a wide variety of settings over the years, clearing space in large crowds, calming down violent people, moving against mobs, distracting attackers etc...

I have trained quite a few people over the years to use it this way and I believe anybody can do it. To start simply do those "rub your hands together and move the ball of energy" exercises. Fill your body with energy, imagine it going out of your body in an egg shaped aura around you that is just outside your fingertip range. Remember to include the bottom, go through the ground.

Once you can maintain a consistant emotion / energy you will be able to feel other peoples energy as it enters your "space". At very close range it feels like heat, sometimes it tingles, or maybe just an odd pressure. Slowly move your ball of energy right up to the skin, then back off, then go back in again. You will come to recognize the pressure and with time will be able to feel it from farther away.

Once you get it you will be able to start feeling intent. It's like the person is telling you exactly what they are going to do just by thinking it.

I am more than willing to give a lesson to any of you who are in the San Francisco Bay Area and want to learn more or just think I am blowing smoke.

As everybody else said, the rest of it is just proper technique or tricks.

 

[Zepp]

Have you guys read the latest MT magazine yet? (There's a link to it in upper left-hand corner of every page here.) It has an article on Ki/Chi which I particularly liked. I highly suggest reading it if you have any interest in trying to prove or disprove anything on the subject.

 

[SMP]

Some of you may be interested in checking out this web site. This is out of Seattle WA.

http://www.qigongseattle.com/research.asp

 

[Han-Mi]

All very interesting. You have all contributed to redefining what I consider ki

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Hey that was cool, are there any exercises that I can learn? Using this mental imagery. Are there any pages or websites of exercises to pratice etc?

Regards