Kenpo Training

[Doc]

Most arts get watered down due to financial concerns. It seems that what is being said is that Parker simply gave a model that didn't have to be watered down as it was designed with the bussiness in mind and that he continued to develop the non-business model on his own.

There you go again making sense, and expressing it eloquently.

I wonder why this seems so difficult to grasp. If you are going to create a martial arts business, obviously it can't contain all the physical and intellectual demands of higher learning. That would make a lousy business model considering the average person isn't interested, willing to invest the effort, or capable of understanding the information. Much like everyone isn't in college or pursuing a higher degree. It's not a bad thing. And by the way, who's going to teach all these people all over the place geographically? Parker? He couldn't be everywhere, and he was the only expert. So, he created a conceptually based idea driven commercial art form built around the business plan of a dance studio chain, that allowed a student to seek their own level of competence within its conceptual bounderies. The problem is students and teachers received belts and degrees whose validity is also limited by the vehicle. Therefore they are vested in promoting the material as being the best. It's good, and in some hands really good. But the best? No! This is the reason many are defecting to other arts to suppliment their own information and skills. But that doesn't man Ed Parker Sr. didn't have the goods. He did. More than most will ever know, but he never sold it and if you ever paid for a lesson, you got the commercial stuff.

 

[Danjo]

There you go again making sense, and expressing it eloquently.

Thanks.

It doesn't sound like Parker was trying to rip anyone off, or give them a crappy product. It sounds like he was giving them something that they could use in self defense against most people, but that would be readily transmittable to the masses in a relitively short period of time. I recently read an article where some of the prominant Hsing-I instructors did the same thing in WWII. They had to distill Hsing-I down to a stripped down system in order to teach it quickly to men in the Army. It was a good product, but it would never allow the men that practiced it to become true masters of Hsing-I.

To do that, one had to 1) learn personally from a master instructor after the war was over 2) be patient enough to learn it correctly and 3) forget some of what they had been taught in the stripped down version designed to help men in combat get to a minimum level of proficiency quickly. It's not that the Army Hsing-I was "bad" per se, it just wasn't the whole product and many of the basics were forgone in order to facilitate rapid learning of combat skills. But, that's what the Army wanted. If they knew that each soldier would have to train for at least two years in order to gain minimum proficiency in combat, they would have looked elsewhere for an instructor.

However, it became very clear to those that wanted to continue their training after the war that they weren't really the Hsing-I experts that they thought they were based on their bootcamp experiences.

 

[Doc]

Thanks.

It doesn't sound like Parker was trying to rip anyone off, or give them a crappy product. It sounds like he was giving them something that they could use in self defense against most people, but that would be readily transmittable to the masses in a relitively short period of time. I recently read an article where some of the prominant Hsing-I instructors did the same thing in WWII. They had to distill Hsing-I down to a stripped down system in order to teach it quickly to men in the Army. It was a good product, but it would never allow the men that practiced it to become true masters of Hsing-I.

To do that, one had to 1) learn personally from a master instructor after the war was over 2) be patient enough to learn it correctly and 3) forget some of what they had been taught in the stripped down version designed to help men in combat get to a minimum level of proficiency quickly. It's not that the Army Hsing-I was "bad" per se, it just wasn't the whole product and many of the basics were forgone in order to facilitate rapid learning of combat skills. But, that's what the Army wanted. If they knew that each soldier would have to train for at least two years in order to gain minimum proficiency in combat, they would have looked elsewhere for an instructor.

However, it became very clear to those that wanted to continue their training after the war that they weren't really the Hsing-I experts that they thought they were based on their bootcamp experiences.

Exactly sir. Any rip off would come from instructors who chose to not to become more competent and knowledgeable. Parker gave them a reasonable base to work from but for the most part, once receiving significant rank (from any source), they stopped learning as long as the money kept rolling in and people kept bowing.

On a side note, one of my students who has relatives in Japan just got back from a visit. He tells me there is no difference there. You have to find the 'underground garage' schools to really learn something. McDojo's are alive and well there too. Same for China and the rest of the world. It's all about the 'cheddar.' If this is the case in those cultures, why is it so hard to grasp in our fast food society?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Doc, can you give us an example of a piece of the non-motion based curriculum that contradicts the commercial business model?

I could. But I learned it from Doc, and won't make it available to the curious public without his permission.

"Everything, everything, everything". Everything you do matters in relationship to every other thing you do. Stepping forward or back into a right neutral bow is not enough. It matters HOW you do it. Failing to do so adequately, your subsequent strikes will lack sufficient energy or integrity to be delivered with the authority each persons body is capable of, when properly informed.

Follow that foot maneuver-to-stance with an inward block. HOW you deliver the inward block will deeply affect your body's anatomical integrity, influencing whether or not your block merely acts as interference to your opponents strike, or has the added effect of taking him off his horse a bit, so as to set him up for a dropping KO with the next strike. If you wanted to follow that block with a chop to the neck, that chop can either be a stinger (if your step to a stance or block were done incorrectly), or a blasting knockout. Even the handsword has a right and wrong way of being delivered to create that desired effect. Each one thing that matters is predicated on the accurate and appropriate delivery & execution of every other thing that matters. And "it all matters."

The learning process is much more tedious and technical than block-&-beat training. But the payoff is absolutely there. You get to defend yourself with solid basics and skills, stopping attackers cold in their tracks, and not have to rip out their eyes to do it. You get to be one of the kenpoists who can watch other kenpoists (live, or on tape), and tell if their going to be able to harm you with their strikes or not, because you wil have learned what Structural Alignment looks like; the difference between power and force as applied to kenpo (stepping up the uumph isn't remotely enough).

Notebooks say, "Step forward/back to a neutral bow with an inward block, followed immediately by an outward handsword to the side of the neck". They don't include details on HOW to do it for optimal effect, alignment, integrity, recruitment, etc. That is the real HOW; not the sequence. The sequence is really just a What; one that is cute, but practically useless without the How component firmly in place.

Seek the difference; it matters.

Best Regards,

Dave Crouch, DC

 

[Doc]

Doc, can you give us an example of a piece of the non-motion based curriculum that contradicts the commercial business model?

Consider the contradictions as 'philosophical.' What is 'acceptable' in one would not be tolerated in the other. The physical contraditions are immense, primarily because the commercial product does not define 'how' to do anything. It 'suggests' ideas. Take blocks as an example. The commercial 'suggest" a 'Box Concept" to help you visualize angles. Good. It 'suggests' height, width, and depth zones in applications. Good. However no where does it explain or define 'how' to accomplish any of these very physical anatomical movements.

Consider this. Your coach explains the concepts of the game of basketball. He tells you about dribbling, shooting, the basket, how you score etc. Than he gives you a ball and says, "Go play the game." He talked about dribbling, but never discussed the complexities of 'how' to physically do it or its many variations. He told you the ball needs to go in the basket, but never gave you the strict mechanics needed to accomplish it. etc.

When I did your seminar, did you ever think you could learn so much about a neutral bow stance and 'how' to move in it? How to get there? Or the method needed to make it stable against pressure? These are not things I made up, but knowledge of the science of human anatomy in application. Without this instruction, we're little better than the average joe whose had a couple of street fights, and he may be better.

 

[Doc]

I could. But I learned it from Doc, and won't make it available to the curious public without his permission.

"Everything, everything, everything". Everything you do matters in relationship to every other thing you do. Stepping forward or back into a right neutral bow is not enough. It matters HOW you do it. Failing to do so adequately, your subsequent strikes will lack sufficient energy or integrity to be delivered with the authority each persons body is capable of, when properly informed.

Follow that foot maneuver-to-stance with an inward block. HOW you deliver the inward block will deeply affect your body's anatomical integrity, influencing whether or not your block merely acts as interference to your opponents strike, or has the added effect of taking him off his horse a bit, so as to set him up for a dropping KO with the next strike. If you wanted to follow that block with a chop to the neck, that chop can either be a stinger (if your step to a stance or block were done incorrectly), or a blasting knockout. Even the handsword has a right and wrong way of being delivered to create that desired effect. Each one thing that matters is predicated on the accurate and appropriate delivery & execution of every other thing that matters. And "it all matters."

The learning process is much more tedious and technical than block-&-beat training. But the payoff is absolutely there. You get to defend yourself with solid basics and skills, stopping attackers cold in their tracks, and not have to rip out their eyes to do it. You get to be one of the kenpoists who can watch other kenpoists (live, or on tape), and tell if their going to be able to harm you with their strikes or not, because you wil have learned what Structural Alignment looks like; the difference between power and force as applied to kenpo (stepping up the uumph isn't remotely enough).

Notebooks say, "Step forward/back to a neutral bow with an inward block, followed immediately by an outward handsword to the side of the neck". They don't include details on HOW to do it for optimal effect, alignment, integrity, recruitment, etc. That is the real HOW; not the sequence. The sequence is really just a What; one that is cute, but practically useless without the How component firmly in place.

Seek the difference; it matters.

Best Regards,

Dave Crouch, DC

You have mail.

 

[Carol]

On a side note, one of my students who has relatives in Japan just got back from a visit. He tells me there is no difference there. You have to find the 'underground garage' schools to really learn something. McDojo's are alive and well there too. Same for China and the rest of the world. It's all about the 'cheddar.' If this is the case in those cultures, why is it so hard to grasp in our fast food society?

Because even in a fast food society there is a profitable market for organic food at quadruple the price. The customer base for organic food has an attractive amount of disposable income and has experienced enough professional success to understand that one truly can profit from the values of discipline, hard work, and thinking of something beyond oneself. That one knows from experience that short-term successes are fleeting, but long term accomplishments are truly lasting.

If the product is something of quality, and I have no doubt that it is, why not hope see it in the hands of more students...different students? If the client base is not appropriate, then perhaps a paradigm shift is. If instructors are encouraged to pay a high degree of attention to their art...why not encourage instructors to also work on their business school training as well as their Kenpo training? The result could be skills strong enough to teach a high quality art to a student base that typically can't be reached with a free gi and two privates.

 

[Doc]

Because even in a fast food society there is a profitable market for organic food at quadruple the price. The customer base for organic food has an attractive amount of disposable income and has experienced enough professional success to understand that one truly can profit from the values of discipline, hard work, and thinking of something beyond oneself. That one knows from experience that short-term successes are fleeting, but long term accomplishments are truly lasting.

If the product is something of quality, and I have no doubt that it is, why not hope see it in the hands of more students...different students? If the client base is not appropriate, then perhaps a paradigm shift is. If instructors are encouraged to pay a high degree of attention to their art...why not encourage instructors to also work on their business school training as well as their Kenpo training? The result could be skills strong enough to teach a high quality art to a student base that typically can't be reached with a free gi and two privates.

Unfortunately the 'customer base' is a much smaller demographic than in the food industry, (everyone eats) and is even further limited by geographical constraints. The number of those interested AND willing to subject themselves to the rigourous training, AND live within a reasonble distance is relatively small. As huge as the 'martial arts industry' is, it is only a small percentage of the population. Even smaller are those who would participate at that level.

 

[Carol]

The customer base as it currently stands.

The values of martial arts have so many commonalities to the corporate world, it would make an executive coach faint. To reach an corporate audience will take a change, rethinking, and doing things in a different way. The vast majority of corporate management are in shape, and budget the time and the money to commit themselves to being physically active.

It's a wide open and highly profitable base, full of clientele that are willing to pay for the best there possibly is...but it will take different skills to tap in to it. It is, however, an excellent source of potential students that can and do take steps to be their absolute personal best.

 

[Danjo]

In addidtion to my love of Kempo and the hard style of martial arts,one of my interests for a few years has been the Internal Chinese Boxing systems of Hsing-I, Ba Gua, and Taiji. This has been ever since a former high school student of mine introduced me to it some years ago. Now, while I'm certain that I look very silly compared to true experts in these arts, I still find them endlessly facinating and try to practice the little bit I have learned every morning as a warm up. In researching these wonderful arts, I find that much of what Doc has been saying is also said by masters of these arts. For instance, one of the 20th century's great practitioners was Hung-I Hsiang from Taiwan. Here is what one of his celebrated students had to say about Hung's theories in his book. Tell me if it doesn't sound a bit like the stuff Doc has been saying all along:

"Hung I Hsiang’s emphasis was not so much on maximizing internal power and chi development. Instead, he focused on the subtleties of how to effectively deliver the power one had and how to rapidly and smoothly change from one technique to another. He did this by showing how to make tiny circles deep within every crevice of the body and how to change internal body alignments with great speed. He spent a lot of time showing how tiny shifts in body weight could create unusual power vectors. He also made students feel this power not only in terms of strikes, but also by showing how changes in subtle body movements could achieve desired defense/attack application outcomes. He taught his students how to instantaneously release themselves from bad internal alignments that could normally paralyze the body, and resume their attack, much like you smoothly change gears in a stick shift car. Hung’s emphasis was on how small changes of body movement or chi flow could produce superior practical fighting techniques and overall athletic capacity."
Reprinted from The Power of Internal Martial Arts by B.K. Frantzis

Also, here is a quote from one of the great original works on Taiji from Grandmaster Yang Chenfu:

"If there are those who have not trained thoroughly in the form, they should not skip stages and practice applications. I'm afraid they would simply lack a foundation, and the end results would be few."

The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan, 1933, by Yang Chenfu

Cheers

 

[HKphooey]

Some students may not want to spend 40 years becoming a master of every step of the art. As I learn certain techniques I know I would never use them on the street. My goal in not to make money, start an organization, or sell videos - My goal is to teach an everyday student to defend themselves.

I understand where most of you are coming from - you are dedicated to your art and training. You goal is to perfect as much of the art as possible, not matter how long it takes. I can respect that.

It is not just a "money" thing. Some students start training for self-defense, self-confidence and to better their health. They are not looking to become the next "kenpo god". For those students we must extract the portions that will help them achieve their goals (But I agree, don’t hang a huge sign out from of the dojo stating “Pure EPAK Taught Here”). This is the similar belief of LEA, military and tactical self-defense trainers.

Once we see that a student decides they want to learn the “pure art”, it is our role as instructors to direct them on that path. In some cases we may have to advise them to seek training outside the existing dojo.

As always I truly respect all your comments and take them to heart. Thank you for all your feedback! J

"To hold and fill to overflowing is not as good as to stop in time. Sharpen a knife-edge to its very sharpest, and the edge will not last long." – Loa Tzu

 

[DavidCC]

Consider the contradictions as 'philosophical.' What is 'acceptable' in one would not be tolerated in the other. The physical contraditions are immense, primarily because the commercial product does not define 'how' to do anything. It 'suggests' ideas. Take blocks as an example. The commercial 'suggest" a 'Box Concept" to help you visualize angles. Good. It 'suggests' height, width, and depth zones in applications. Good. However no where does it explain or define 'how' to accomplish any of these very physical anatomical movements.

Consider this. Your coach explains the concepts of the game of basketball. He tells you about dribbling, shooting, the basket, how you score etc. Than he gives you a ball and says, "Go play the game." He talked about dribbling, but never discussed the complexities of 'how' to physically do it or its many variations. He told you the ball needs to go in the basket, but never gave you the strict mechanics needed to accomplish it. etc.

When I did your seminar, did you ever think you could learn so much about a neutral bow stance and 'how' to move in it? How to get there? Or the method needed to make it stable against pressure? These are not things I made up, but knowledge of the science of human anatomy in application. Without this instruction, we're little better than the average joe whose had a couple of street fights, and he may be better.

Gotcha

We clearly do not have the depth of understanding and application of mechanics of anatomy that are built into SL4, but I think (hope) we are closer to that model (expecting exacting excellence) than we are to the "commercial model". As my Teacher recently told me "good enough is not good enough". I'm finding it hard to express exatcly what I mean, I'm not trying to compare us to MSU LOL or denegrate AK in general... but I do understand your point (and Dr. Crouch, too, thanks!)

 

[Danjo]

Some students may not want to spend 40 years becoming a master of every step of the art. As I learn certain techniques I know I would never use them on the street. My goal in not to make money, start an organization, or sell videos - My goal is to teach an everyday student to defend themselves.

I understand where most of you are coming from - you are dedicated to your art and training. You goal is to perfect as much of the art as possible, not matter how long it takes. I can respect that.

It is not just a "money" thing. Some students start training for self-defense, self-confidence and to better their health. They are not looking to become the next "kenpo god". For those students we must extract the portions that will help them achieve their goals (But I agree, don’t hang a huge sign out from of the dojo stating “Pure EPAK Taught Here”). This is the similar belief of LEA, military and tactical self-defense trainers.

Once we see that a student decides they want to learn the “pure art”, it is our role as instructors to direct them on that path. In some cases we may have to advise them to seek training outside the existing dojo.

As always I truly respect all your comments and take them to heart. Thank you for all your feedback! J

"To hold and fill to overflowing is not as good as to stop in time. Sharpen a knife-edge to its very sharpest, and the edge will not last long." – Loa Tzu

I totally understand your position on this. That is the military position also on hand-to-hand combat. They want to keep it to a few simple, trainable techniques that will allow the soldiers to be able to deal with most general situations effectively. Same goes for women's self defense classes etc. Can't blame anyone for taking that approach.

 

[Danjo]

Doc,

Did I read correctly that you said that the crescent/half-moon stepping common to Shotokan etc. is a less effective way to move compared to the more straight stepping found in arts like shito ryu?

 

[Doc]

Doc,

Did I read correctly that you said that the crescent/half-moon stepping common to Shotokan etc. is a less effective way to move compared to the more straight stepping found in arts like shito ryu?

Yes sir that is correct. In fact, it totally destroys your forward structural integrity by confusing the body's autonomic nervous system sensors. I suggest this foot manuever is a result of the Japanese and Okinawans attempting to duplicate the hip function of the Chinese Arts with very poor results. Although it is possibel to be somewhat effective with this action, it depends on body momentum and inertia to supply the bulk of the effectiveness sir.

A simple experiment will verify this. Execute the foot manuever of choice, punch, and freeze. have someone push against the punching hand front to back and 'feel.'

"It's the small things where the knowledge resides. It's the little things that make the big things happen." - Ron Chapél

 

[Danjo]

Yes sir that is correct. In fact, it totally destroys your forward structural integrity by confusing the body's autonomic nervous system sensors. I suggest this foot manuever is a result of the Japanese and Okinawans attempting to duplicate the hip function of the Chinese Arts with very poor results. Although it is possibel to be somewhat effective with this action, it depends on body momentum and inertia to supply the bulk of the effectiveness sir.

A simple experiment will verify this. Execute the foot manuever of choice, punch, and freeze. have someone push against the punching hand front to back and 'feel.'

"It's the small things where the knowledge resides. It's the little things that make the big things happen." - Ron Chapél

Thank you. That clears things up.