Kenpo Forms

[tigdra]

What use are kenpo forms?

I have taken kenpo for many years and every time I learn a new form or technique I ask myself what am I learning, more importantly what am I learning that is new? What am I getting out of this?

I know that forms teach you to have correct technique, flow from technique to technique, learning techniques on both sides but what do kenpo forms teach you aside from that? and how many forms do you need to go through to re-learn the same concepts.


please correct my way of thinking because I have lost hope on kenpo forms

 

[JTKenpo]

The only person that can correct your way of thinking is you. If you want to delve into your kata then do just that. If you personally can't find any more lessons in your kata then find a teacher that can show you something new if that is what you are looking for. But that is the question here, what do you want from your kenpo forms? If the answer is knowledge then go seek it, it's out there. If you are just looking to get people wriled up about the importance of kata then I have nothing for you. Your forms are just that your forms. My forms are my forms. They may have the same movements they may not, they may teach the same lessons they may not. Some days I learn volumes from them, other days I toss them out of my training for that day and look to them again tomorrow. But then again thats me you have to find your own path.

 

[IWishToLearn]

*Waits for Professor Conatser or Doc to chime in*

 

[marlon]

in a word : practice. Forms are one of the few places you can go all out using full force and full movement. The important point is to practice the principles as you do the forms. A fight or interaction with another body will cause you to adjust things that may not necessarily need to be adjusted. Forms help you to practice the basics of posture, breath, stance and timing "freely" if you will. It is absolutely necessary to work with as partner otherwise the concepts will not make sense and be changed to suit your imagination. Also, to learn something and to practice it is different. All concepts need to be rte inforced and the best forms re -enforced many concepts over and over again. So, this is what i see as thier benfit. Also, i consider each form your own personal treasure box of techniques. As your understanding and skill grows you will find many wonderful things in your forms that your instructor never "taught" you..and so you grow some more.
just my thoughts

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[tshadowchaser]

forms help your speed and concentration. The help you develop a flow between techniques. They can improve you cardio-vascular, and muscles.
They may have the same techniques or the may have new ones but they make you move and you muscles and brain learn at the same time.
Some forms may not seem to have any meaning other than movement but in 5 or 10 years you may see them completely differently.

 

[tigdra]

....

 

[tigdra]

My main concern comes from this conclusion; there are a large percentage of kenpo masters that are over weight.

Don't get me wrong they are super fast with their hands and all but they got this big belly going on, and yet you see kung fu masters and their majority are slim. Don't get me wrong I am not comparing asians to americans. I am comparing american people who practice kenpo vs american people that practice kung fu.

I am pretty sure I read this somewhere it stated that, parker was suggested to included forms into the kenpo system so to become more competitive or more legitimate.

So if forms where put into kenpo for those reasons then why not create forms that would serve new gains. To excel certain areas that are lacking in kenpo.

You learn defense from your techniques, you work out and condition your body through your exercise classes then what do forms do? Do they teach you hidden concepts that you'll never learn from a technique? do they condition your body to perform moves to make you more agile? are they done for beauty?

I know my answer to this question but I would like to hear yours.


I don't know the shaolin kenpo forms but I do know these following kenpo forms.

short 1 2 3 4 5
long 1 2 3 4 5
Block set
book set (panther set)
tiger and crane
finger set
moving finger set
mass attack
kung fu set
sword set
staff set
2 man set
2 man staff
tan tui
kicking sets
coordination sets
stance sets
and a couple others....

 

[tigdra]

... few places you can go all out using full force and full movement. The important point is to practice the principles as you do the forms.......

Forms help you to practice the basics of posture, breath, stance and timing "freely" if you will....

re -enforced many concepts over and over again. Marlon

I agree with you marlon those are all great points, katas do those things, but couldn't you just practice your techniques by yourself to get those same benefits. I know you can go all out and perform a full movement in a form why not in technique practice. Couldn't I practice my posture, breath, stance and timing during my technique practice. and don't we reinforce concepts by learning other techniques that show use the same concept used in an other scenerio.

I know that it looks like I am critisizing you marlon, but I'm not. I am trying to get a deeper understanding of what I have learned.

 

[tigdra]

...

 

[tigdra]

quote=tshadowchaser;960321]1.forms help your speed and concentration.

2. The help you develop a flow between techniques.

3. They can improve you cardio-vascular, and muscles.

4. They may have the same techniques or the may have new ones but they make you move and you muscles and brain learn at the same time.

5. Some forms may not seem to have any meaning other than movement but in 5 or 10 years you may see them completely differently.[/quote]

• True forms do help your concentration they could even be considered a form of meditation, but can’t I do that with just one form, do I really need several forms to teach me concentration and can’t I just learn to concentrate through regular deep breaths and meditation. In regards to speed can’t I work my speed through the repetition and refinement of my techniques

• Your absolutely right they do teach you flow from technique to technique but do I really need so many forms to teach me that concept. And if the response to my question is “to expose an individual to a flow of many techniques, then why not scratch all techniques and just learn 30 forms with all the techniques in them. Wouldn’t that be insane, the truth is that we can learn long or short 3 and understand that techniques can flow into each other.

• I wish kenpo forms were a workout but their not, a basic kung fu form kicks almost all of the kenpo forms in regards to cardiovascular and muscular development. And anyways I can develop my cardiovascular and muscular system during class through complex and new exercises.

• But can’t you get the same muscular and mental development through the practice of forms.

• I have practiced kenpo for over 20 years and I have worked with many different MASTERS of the art. Big name people that anyone in the kenpo world would recognize. I have trained in many other different styles of martial arts and I understand goju ryu or tae kwon do their forms are practiced progressively as a form of tradition and also due to the fact that many of their schools don’t have as many techniques as kenpo does. Or kung fu I see the function, you progressively push your body to more agile and limber movements with each form including a new stance and within them hidden techniques that are not taught so that you find their meaning through self discovery and not to mention the workout you get by going through their forms. But kenpo neither gives you a progressive cardiovascular or agility structure nor are they practiced for tradition, parker invented the large majority of them.

Tshadowchaser I mean no disrespect with my comments they are just my ideas in regards to your comments. I encourage your responses and those of the community, I love to talk about martial arts and especially when the topics meaningful.

 

[kidswarrior]

My main concern comes from this conclusion; there are a large percentage of kenpo masters that are over weight.

Don't get me wrong they are super fast with their hands and all but they got this big belly going on, and yet you see kung fu masters and their majority are slim. Don't get me wrong I am not comparing asians to americans.

Well, here's an Asian master who *practices* and teaches shuaijiao: one, and two (gotta watch the background very carefully). I just wish I could show how he really looks in the classic DVD, Chinese Kung Fu Wrestling, belly, coke bottle glasses and all. A lot like my old boxing coach from the 60s. He was 25 years out of fighting shape, but you wouldn't have wanted to fight him.

 

[Hawke]

Kata (from an EPAK point of view)

-record the techniques into your muscle memory (built in DVD)

-practice kenpo concepts (marriage of gravity, 3D Striking, Backup Mass, Purposeful Compliance).

-master key moves

-other meanings behind the moves (look at the move and see other applications for it)

 

[marlon]

I agree with you marlon those are all great points, katas do those things, but couldn't you just practice your techniques by yourself to get those same benefits. I know you can go all out and perform a full movement in a form why not in technique practice. Couldn't I practice my posture, breath, stance and timing during my technique practice. and don't we reinforce concepts by learning other techniques that show use the same concept used in an other scenerio.

I know that it looks like I am critisizing you marlon, but I'm not. I am trying to get a deeper understanding of what I have learned.

Never hesitate to criticize my, sir...
You could practice your techniques for the above benefits, however, i myself will go through a set of techniques and then need to stop to think of which technique next. this interupts flow and cardio..i suppose one could just shadow box also. However, the benefit of a set number of movements learned as one thing and designed to flow from one move to the next and from one set of concepts to the next (with considerable overlap) has an added benefit. If you string together a bunch of your techniqes and insert logical transitions then that would be equal to forms practice...but then you would also have a form. The breathing pattern in most forms also teach something that just practicing one technique after another does not address. these are just some of my thoughts , and , fo course, i may be way off. i would like to read your response to your own question.

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

many systems have one or very few forms. With the amount of techniques we have, there may not be a necessity for so many forms. Our forms are very short in comparisson to many other styles, strining them together can help that point though. I am not so sure it would be a bad thing to teach the system with a limited number of forms and teach the needed techniques for each level through the form. i have often thought of it myself. People would focus on the basics more through the form and would develop a greater ability to look for and interpret meaning from movement and concepts from movement..they would use thier forms to fight, they would question more...Perhaps, it is because at one time and for many today there was no "karate: without kata. This belief may have led to the creation of many forms. SGM Parker was very focused when creating his techniques but i do not recall Doc discussing forms much,though...

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[kidswarrior]

I am not so sure it would be a bad thing to teach the system with a limited number of forms and teach the needed techniques for each level through the form. i have often thought of it myself. People would focus on the basics more through the form and would develop a greater ability to look for and interpret meaning from movement and concepts from movement..they would use thier forms to fight, they would question more.

respectfully,
Marlon

A very good point, and one I've been chewing over myself for awhile now. One additional thought would be, the instructor could teach techs derived from previously learned forms, also, and students could continue to learn from their solo practice and resistance (partner) training with those previous forms as well.

I'd love to know what others thought about this.

 

[kidswarrior]

you move and you muscles and brain learn at the same time.

Completely missed this important piece the first time I read it. As said on another thread, the higher (thinking) brain and the lower (muscle memory, or reactive/fight-or-flight part of the brain) both learn through forms, simultaneously.

Some forms may not seem to have any meaning other than movement but in 5 or 10 years you may see them completely differently.

You said a whole lot here, brother. :asian:

 

[MJS]

What use are kenpo forms?

I have taken kenpo for many years and every time I learn a new form or technique I ask myself what am I learning, more importantly what am I learning that is new? What am I getting out of this?

I know that forms teach you to have correct technique, flow from technique to technique, learning techniques on both sides but what do kenpo forms teach you aside from that? and how many forms do you need to go through to re-learn the same concepts.


please correct my way of thinking because I have lost hope on kenpo forms

Forms are just a small part of the entire puzzle. Can fighting applications be taken from kata? Yes. Are there things in kata that you need to look for? Yes. But, IMHO, as I said, they're just one part. I still feel that you need to spar/fight, and move in an alive fashion, in order to be complete.

Now, some of the things kata teaches. From the Parker forms:

Short 1: It contains strictly defensive moves, various stances and blocks. It teaches peripheral vision, how to block while retreating and timing of hands and feet.

You can find more breakdowns from the EPAK Infinite Insights books. Now, can these things be learned without kata? Sure. Alot of what we do is drilling the various aspects. Some do it by kata, some do it thru shadow boxing, actual sparring, bag work, etc. Again, its a simple drill.

Now, you ask how many forms you need to learn the same concepts. Well, are the concepts really the same? What one learns at white, is going to be different from purple and different from brown. Take Short 2. More advanced stances, different methods of execution, etc. If we look at boxing, there are the basic punches. Now, a beginner isn't going to move or throw the punches like someone whos been boxing for 10yrs. The same with BJJ. A blue belt, purple and brown belt pretty much knows the same things a black belt does. Difference is, the black belt is 10 times better at execution.

Some arts doing have kata, so to speak, but if we look at kata, its a preset pattern. The boxer has various punches to pick from, and during focus mit work, will throw a variety of combos. They can be interchanged, but they're teaching a pattern so to speak...a drill. Its up to the student to be able to pull things from that drill and apply them.

Mike

 

[newGuy12]

No one is going to say that they look wicked cool? I will.

 

[tigdra]

Kata (from an EPAK point of view)

-record the techniques into your muscle memory (built in DVD)

-practice kenpo concepts (marriage of gravity, 3D Striking, Backup Mass, Purposeful Compliance).

-master key moves

-other meanings behind the moves (look at the move and see other applications for it)

Can't you record the techniques just by practicing them, and don't you learn concepts through techniques as well such as marriage of gravity in sword of destruction (basic technique) Don't you also practice key moves in techniques, finally can't you analyze techniques by themselves and find new meanings to them or do they really need to be in a form.

My question isn't what does a kata teach you? My question is what does kenpo katas teach you that a technique doesn't other than the obvious which is flowing from one technique to the other. (which in fact a technique does teach you such as “escape from death” and “bear and the ram”)

 

[tigdra]

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