Kenpo Distance Learning?

[Danjo]

Here is an interesting article I came across. It brings up some good points, but there are a few things that I disagree with.

Thoughts/comments??

Uh...was this from an add for a video set perchance?

 

[Danjo]

Another key thing here is that the instructor did not correct the students. So what we find is that learning from a video and learning from an instructor that will not correct your technique is about the same. That's about what I would have thought.

 

[MJS]

Uh...was this from an add for a video set perchance?

I saw it on Larry Tatums site. It appears to be a simple test between live training vs. video training.

Mike

 

[Danjo]

I saw it on Larry Tatums site. It appears to be a simple test between live training vs. video training.

Mike

Ok. Tatum sells a video set for training through black belt, so I can see whay he would have that on there. Again the key is that the instructor did not offer correction to the students any more than a video would.

 

[MJS]

Another key thing here is that the instructor did not correct the students. So what we find is that learning from a video and learning from an instructor that will not correct your technique is about the same. That's about what I would have thought.

Each live technique was performed three times by the instructor. Then the students practiced it with the instructor as the partner until they could execute it proficiently.
Each video-based technique was viewed three times. Then the students practiced it with the instructor, but he merely served as the attacker. He did not make corrections or offer advice.

Upon reading this, it does not state if corrections were made under the live conditions. The video session simulates not having an inst. hence, no corrections are going to be made. He was simply serving as the 'attacker'

Mike

 

[MJS]

Ok. Tatum sells a video set for training through black belt, so I can see whay he would have that on there. Again the key is that the instructor did not offer correction to the students any more than a video would.

As I said, it does not appear that corrections were made. So, if thats the case, IMO, it was a very poor comparison, because if the live inst. is any good, they will be offering advice. A better test would have been to have the live inst. show the tech. to the students, with corrections being made by him, questions being answered, etc.

Mike

 

[Kenpomachine]

Even if the instructor is not correcting, he is attacking and reacting correctly (that's a supposition), which is a luxury most people studying at home don't have.

 

[MJS]

Even if the instructor is not correcting, he is attacking and reacting correctly (that's a supposition), which is a luxury most people studying at home don't have.

True. But, I still feel that its important to have an understanding of the tech. If your footwork is off, strikes are not being placed properly, etc. how effective is that tech. going to be?

I recently had the chance to work with another Kenpo inst. in my area. In the hour lesson, we only covered a small amount of material, but in that time, I was amazed as to the slight details that I was leaving out. Once I made the corrections, the tech. went much better. The improvements were very obvious to me anyway.

Mike

 

[The Kai]

True. But, I still feel that its important to have an understanding of the tech. If your footwork is off, strikes are not being placed properly, etc. how effective is that tech. going to be?

I recently had the chance to work with another Kenpo inst. in my area. In the hour lesson, we only covered a small amount of material, but in that time, I was amazed as to the slight details that I was leaving out. Once I made the corrections, the tech. went much better. The improvements were very obvious to me anyway.

Mike

Right there, that's the ticket. Please remember that any study is as good as the pre set parameters. Also the study was published by a magazine that's makes money advertising selling the tapes
Todd

 

[MJS]

Right there, that's the ticket. Please remember that any study is as good as the pre set parameters. Also the study was published by a magazine that's makes money advertising selling the tapes
Todd

Well said Sir! :asian: As for me posting that study...I did not set out in a search to find info. I happened to stumble across it while looking at Mr. Tatums site.

You are absolutely correct though...it was put out by people trying to promote the home study courses that are offered.

I guess that nobody can control who each individual studies. I can only speak for me, and I prefer to train under a living, breathing, inst.

Mike

 

[shane23ss]

I understand the IKCA requires you to send a tape back to them for sort of a belt test. Do the others, such as Tatum and Accord do this?

 

[bdparsons]

Though video training should not be the first choice if qualified instructors are available, it can be a viable alternative provided certain parameters are met:

Credibility-The people you learn from must be legit.

Affordability-Otherwise what's the point?

Accessability-You must have the means to ask questions and get clarification when needed.

Accountablity-Without being held accountable for what you're learning (read: detailed critique and proper testing) then it's probably an exercise in futility.

Easy-no. Possible-yes.

Kinda funny that eveything I mentioned needs to be present in a face-to-face training scenario too. Hmm... must mean good instruction is good instruction regardless of the medium.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[John Bishop]

Sort of like learning how to play football from videos. Your never going to know if you can really block and tackle until you get on the field with other players.
But football's a game. Self defense isn't.

 

[The Kai]

It's all about the cash, and the easy way to black belt. The foundation of any art is hands on.

Todd

 

[Danjo]

Sort of like learning how to play football from videos. Your never going to know if you can really block and tackle until you get on the field with other players.
But football's a game. Self defense isn't.

I agree. Unless you have had someone throw a punch or kick at you, or try to tackle or take you down, it is impossible to perfect your timing, reflexes and nerve. It essentially becomes Tae-Bo or something similar if it's all just the moves without the hands on. You at least need a partner to get the trial and error part of it down. When I was a kid my uncle and me would use Bruce Tegner's self defense book to practice moves in the front yard. If a move didn't seem to work we kept at it until we could make it work. That took a lot longer than if we had been taught by an instructor, but it did work in a sort of long arduous way.

 

[BallistikMike]

Sort of like learning how to play football from videos. Your never going to know if you can really block and tackle until you get on the field with other players.
But football's a game. Self defense isn't.

That is exactly right Mr. Bishop.

I learned to play the game of football pretty much like every boy. I watched football then went outside and played with my friends pretending to be Walter Peyton (RIP) until I was older and it became more organised.

The key is I "Watched" and learned the game, then went on to practice. The same exact thing can happen in the MA's.

The IKCA isn't claiming to teach anything but a basic no nonsense approach to the Kenpo they teach. They present the material. They correct the material. You must also correct the material. You must also practice it.

It isn't instant correction like a live instructor. It isn't instant feed back either. It most definitely isn't for everyone.

Through video, forums, emails, phone calls and live seminars the relationship of student and teacher is alive and well.

I will say this. Those that I have talked to, myself included, have a solid base in a previous MA and also have solid training partners, but not all.

Distance learning is a very viable option in todays world and will only get better.

Respectfully

 

[Danjo]

I'm not running down training via video IF you have no other choice and IF you have had previous training. It is much better still if you have a partner. But , in my opinion, it will never be as good as live training. Also, if you have only trained via video, you are very likely to get a false impression of how good you are.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm no expert on the subject either, I may be way off here. It may not even be possible to send SL4 info over video. Hopefully Doc will respond to this thread and set us straight.

Can't be done. Kenpo alone is too complex a machine to be learned via video. Doc's SL4-K consists of torques and tweeks (to put it super-simply) to kenpo that are impossible to learn except via live transmission; experienced kenpo BB's have to start over with their basics, just to lay the groundwork for supporting future activities. An SL4 video will most likely only ever be a comparative analysis & demonstration for thought-provoking purposes, and not instructional. That is to say, I certainly don't see how it could be done.

Dave

 

[shane23ss]

Can't be done. Kenpo alone is too complex a machine to be learned via video. Doc's SL4-K consists of torques and tweeks (to put it super-simply) to kenpo that are impossible to learn except via live transmission; experienced kenpo BB's have to start over with their basics, just to lay the groundwork for supporting future activities. An SL4 video will most likely only ever be a comparative analysis & demonstration for thought-provoking purposes, and not instructional. That is to say, I certainly don't see how it could be done.

Dave

I've never trained in SL4, but have researched and read some about it. I agree with what you have said here, it is entirely to complex to be learned by video. I think the fact that you can really only view it from one angle is most of the problem, not to mention the fact that you have no "hands on" and no one there to adjust your "hands on" if you did have it.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I've never trained in SL4, but have researched and read some about it. I agree with what you have said here, it is entirely to complex to be learned by video. I think the fact that you can really only view it from one angle is most of the problem, not to mention the fact that you have no "hands on" and no one there to adjust your "hands on" if you did have it.

That's certainly part of it. Doc can help you refine your kenpo in conversation at a hamburger stand in half an hour, but that information goes back and forth over live, interactive, kinesthetic (feeling) channels of communication wherein he can show you, do it on you, have you feel it, then do it back so he can clean it up. No burger, no Doc, no transfer of information. Memorex won't do.

D