kempo-muy thai

[qizmoduis]

At my AK school we learn both the chambered roundhouse and unchambered. The first uses the instep as the striking surface, while the second generally uses the shin. For both kicks, we've been taught to put your hips into the kick for more power. Unless, of course, you're going for pure speed.

The cut-kick is also fun.

Some of you folks who insist on finding "holes" may be just a little too rigid in your thinking, I think.

Since I'm only a blue-belt, I could be wrong, but I'd personally defer to my instructor over an anonymous board-poster.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

The cross-training vs Kenpo deep study debate has been going on too long. We will never solve it, so I want to offer this analogy about the two smartest people I've ever met. Both of these are real people that I have known/knew for years.

Smartest guy # 1 was a radio announcer in New York since the 1930's. He spoke the most beautiful American English I have ever heard. When he was a child, his parents had him MEMORIZE an entire page of the dictionary EVERY day. He continued this practice into his adult life until he had mastered -- and I do not exagerate -- the entire Oxford unabridged dictionary. He completed this study in his early 70's and died in his 80's. His vocabulary grammer, and oratory was unparalleled. He could find the right words for any situation. He could state things in the simplest clearest manner possible so that EVERYBODY could understand, and he could use big fancy words so that NOBODY could understand him.

Smartest guy # 2 was a professional interpreter working for the League of Nations before WWII. He was the son of immigrants who ran a boarding house for new immigrants from many different countries. He studied languages in school and college. He was fluent in 9 languages and had an ear for accents. In WWII, he was drafted by the OSS, the precursor to the CIA. He went to Morocco posing as a Belgian -- even though he had never been to Belgium. His French language and accent skills did not betray his identity. He also went to North Russia in WWII and used his Russian language skills to get information from drunken officers and pass it on to the US Gov't. His memoirs are in a book titled "To Catch a Shadow" available on Amazon.com

The question here, and the question debated on this and at least a half-dozen other threads, is which is smarter the man who mastered one language, or the man who was fluent in many. You know what? The question about the two men is unanswerable. Neither can we simply answer the question about whether cross-training is more valuable than mastering Kenpo. There is clearly value in both paths.

Perhaps the analogy can help guide us. If we strive to be the most eloquent and masterful speaker/writer in our own language and country, then the path of in-depth study of a single language is the best path. If we strive to be a world traveler and converse with others in far away lands, then multiple languages is the best path. So too with martial arts study. Our goals and objectives must guide the choice of our path. Many of us have different goals and objectives and choose different paths. We need to acknowledge the merits of each others' paths with an open mind and with the respectful tone associated with Kenpo practice.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MJS
Nobody has ever said that they are invincible or are the ulitamte fighter. But, if all these ideas that everything is already there in Kenpo, then why are they not brought into the light right away starting with the new student?? Why do you have to wait until you reach BB, before you discover all the secrets? You should gradually bring this out and continue all the way to the end. Is it not important for the yellow, orange and purple belts to know this? Or is it just reserved for the advanced ranks? By not explaining this in the beginning we are doing noting but cheating the beginner out of alot of knowledge.

MJS

If your instructor doesn't know how to do it, how can he possibly pass it down? If you don't know it, how are you going to pass it down? When are you guys gonna get off thinking everybody is doing and learning Kenpo the same as you, they're/we're not. You're taking way too many generalizations in the course of these threads and to the common onlooker, Kenpo people don't know anything by the looks of these posts. In the future, would you please state that in your opinion, or where and how you train this is or isn't true? I don't train where you train and I don't appreciate people advocating that's how it's done all over. I teach a MT style roundhouse kick sometimes at Day One of training, complete with the rotation of the supporting foot.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Scott Bonner]

Greetings, MJS.

I'll try to touch on your questions quickly.

1) There's no reason why a kenpoist wouldn't learn about the M-T style round. However, it wouldn't be a commonly used move because it's easy to block (in painful ways, I might add), relatively easy to see coming, and with proper follow-through leaves you open to certain counters (not allowed in M-T matches, so it isn't a vulnerability for M-T practitioners).

2) Does your instructor actually claim that you'll be able to pull off a complete self-defence technique with the bad guy just standing around? I bet not. The SD Techniques are teaching tools that are designed to never leave you in a lurch for what to do next when in a real self-defense situation. I don't intend to spend the time explaining this to you. It's been explained before by people infinitely more knowledgeable than me -- in books, on forums, and web pages. It's easy enough to find.

3) If Kenpo has secrets, someone wasn't paying attention. Mr. Parker purposefully "de-mystified" the martial arts. Things are taught in a progressive order, of course, and one would be a fool to do it otherwise. However, there shouldn't be any secrets, though it may seem so if one's instructor is less informed than some other instructor, so that what the other guy shows you seems like a secret revelation.

That being said, there are certainly enough Kenpoist out there doing the whole "oriental mystery art", "magic man on the mountain" flim-flam.

Just my opinions and limited knowledge.

Peace,
Scott

 

[qizmoduis]

Imagine trying to teach calculus to kindergartners.

:rofl:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
If your instructor doesn't know how to do it, how can he possibly pass it down? If you don't know it, how are you going to pass it down? When are you guys gonna get off thinking everybody is doing and learning Kenpo the same as you, they're/we're not. You're taking way too many generalizations in the course of these threads and to the common onlooker, Kenpo people don't know anything by the looks of these posts. In the future, would you please state that in your opinion, or where and how you train this is or isn't true? I don't train where you train and I don't appreciate people advocating that's how it's done all over. I teach a MT style roundhouse kick sometimes at Day One of training, complete with the rotation of the supporting foot.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

You're correct! If he doesn't know it, then how is he going to pass it down. But, if there is a question that he cannot answer, then are you saying that you should not go and find the answer on your own? I realize everybody trains differently, I have said that many times before. I realize that every school is different, but if someone is teaching something, such as the MT roundkick, they have obviously learned it from somewhere else...I guess they must have crosstrained.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Scott Bonner
Greetings, MJS.

I'll try to touch on your questions quickly.

1) There's no reason why a kenpoist wouldn't learn about the M-T style round. However, it wouldn't be a commonly used move because it's easy to block (in painful ways, I might add), relatively easy to see coming, and with proper follow-through leaves you open to certain counters (not allowed in M-T matches, so it isn't a vulnerability for M-T practitioners).

Easy to block? But if you dont block it right, it'll cut right through your defense. Easy to see coming? And a regualr RH kick insn't? MT fighters, if whrn throwing the kick miss, they usually continue the spinning motion, so as to face the opp. again.

2) Does your instructor actually claim that you'll be able to pull off a complete self-defence technique with the bad guy just standing around? I bet not. The SD Techniques are teaching tools that are designed to never leave you in a lurch for what to do next when in a real self-defense situation. I don't intend to spend the time explaining this to you. It's been explained before by people infinitely more knowledgeable than me -- in books, on forums, and web pages. It's easy enough to find.

No, he doesn't.


3) If Kenpo has secrets, someone wasn't paying attention. Mr. Parker purposefully "de-mystified" the martial arts. Things are taught in a progressive order, of course, and one would be a fool to do it otherwise. However, there shouldn't be any secrets, though it may seem so if one's instructor is less informed than some other instructor, so that what the other guy shows you seems like a secret revelation.

That being said, there are certainly enough Kenpoist out there doing the whole "oriental mystery art", "magic man on the mountain" flim-flam.

Just my opinions and limited knowledge.

Peace,
Scott

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
You're taking way too many generalizations in the course of these threads and to the common onlooker, Kenpo people don't know anything by the looks of these posts.
Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde [/B]

I never said they don't know anything. But, it seems to me that some are more concerned with not looking bad and saying that the art covers everything, when in fact it doesn't.

Mike

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MJS
I realize that every school is different, but if someone is teaching something, such as the MT roundkick, they have obviously learned it from somewhere else...I guess they must have crosstrained.

Mike

Yea, whatever

Clyde

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Yea, whatever

Clyde

Yup, its ok to admit it Clyde. Some of us do crosstrain, and are not ashamed to admit it either.

MJS

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MJS
Yup, its ok to admit it Clyde. Some of us do crosstrain, and are not ashamed to admit it either.

MJS

Yea, whatever

Clyde

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Clyde, MJS: You two really ought to take your personal fight outside. Like maybe over to the KenpoNet (just kidding).

 

[rmcrobertson]

That's what an MT roundhouse kick is? I'll be damned. I learned it, in plain ol' kenpo, as a thrusting roundhouse, the complement to a snapping roundhouse. Similarly, there are snapping/thrusting sidekicks, snapping/thrusting front ball kicks...huh.

I might add that if one examines the roundhouse kicks in, say, Attacking Mace and Shield and Sword, this same distinction between kicks appears as part of that there old-fashioned curriculum....

Part of the reason this binary opposition is embedded in kenpo is to sketch out the opposite ends of a spectrum of possible kicks.

Whoops, almost forgot. To suggest that MT offers a "more powerful," kick, one not present in kenpo, is not simply inaccurate. It also privileges "power," over two more important considerations, I would argue: effectiveness, and appropriateness. The best, "strongest," kick isn't always the one that pumps out the most foot-pounds.

P.S. And...well...I haven't yet got to a question my present instructor can't answer.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
That's what an MT roundhouse kick is? I'll be damned. I learned it, in plain ol' kenpo, as a thrusting roundhouse, the complement to a snapping roundhouse. Similarly, there are snapping/thrusting sidekicks, snapping/thrusting front ball kicks...huh.

I might add that if one examines the roundhouse kicks in, say, Attacking Mace and Shield and Sword, this same distinction between kicks appears as part of that there old-fashioned curriculum....

Part of the reason this binary opposition is embedded in kenpo is to sketch out the opposite ends of a spectrum of possible kicks.

Whoops, almost forgot. To suggest that MT offers a "more powerful," kick, one not present in kenpo, is not simply inaccurate. It also privileges "power," over two more important considerations, I would argue: effectiveness, and appropriateness. The best, "strongest," kick isn't always the one that pumps out the most foot-pounds.

P.S. And...well...I haven't yet got to a question my present instructor can't answer.

So Robert, what would we do without the Korean arts so that we may learn to do the attack for Deceptive Panther? So now I have to cross train to figure out how to do a double roundhouse, wherever will it end? Who loves ya baby?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yeah, and thank god nobody in kenpo knows how to do a jump-switch roundhouse kick....hell, if they did some sadistic black belt might throw them into warm-ups for his group classes...good thing I studied under the Dodger game where Chan Ho Park threw one (and promptly got his clock cleaned)....

 

[D.Cobb]

I realize that every school is different, but if someone is teaching something, such as the MT roundkick, they have obviously learned it from somewhere else...I guess they must have crosstrained.

Yeah, well if you were to look to the deep dark origins of American Kenpo, you know, go back to the Okinawan or even the Chinese roots.... guess what, the kick that you are all calling the
"Muay Thai" round kick, was being done, back then, by them..
So you see you don't have to borrow the kick from MT, it's already in EPAK.

--Dave


:asian:

 

[Fastmover]

I think one thing that everyone could borrow from the MT folks
is their methods of training. The way we train ulitmately will
decide what we become and these MT guys have that "put down
your purse and lets bang" mentality on a day in and day out
bases. Because of this they perform their vocabulary of
motion very well. Of course we can do the same thing, but I
think this has to be measured carefully weighing some pros and
cons.

From my personal observation, the MT folks are more extreme
with the training methods, but the down side of this I have found
much more MT fighters with permanent physical injuries even
mental injuries from the poundings they have taken. Obviously
this may not be for everyone.

Im a big fan of these guys and have no doubt of their skill, a skill
that has been honed by intense training.

Just my thoughts

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Yeah, well if you were to look to the deep dark origins of American Kenpo, you know, go back to the Okinawan or even the Chinese roots.... guess what, the kick that you are all calling the
"Muay Thai" round kick, was being done, back then, by them..
So you see you don't have to borrow the kick from MT, it's already in EPAK.

--Dave


:asian:

So the MT kick was created by the Okinawans and Chinese?? Yeah, ok..If it was being done back then, it was probably because it was added to their list of kicks....borrowed from MT.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Yea, whatever

Clyde

More wonderful words of wisdom I see.

Mike

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MJS
More wonderful words of wisdom I see.

Mike

Yea, whatever

Clyde