Kempo / Kenpo Self-defense/Sparring

[kidswarrior]

In my experience someone trying to mug you fully expects that their initial surprise attack will land and that they will continue to pound on you until you fall down. They are not generally concerned with ranges, angels, or your defense etc. They want to take your head off.

So we each just need to consider which situation we are most likely to need to be ready for, and train appropriately. For our school, we train for the second situation.

Agreed. :asian:

 

[Doc]

Another thread that I read somewhere around here was talking about sparring in Kempo / Kenpo.
*Disclaimer* It made me wonder about something that I saw as an inconsistency but could easily just be my ignorance.

As I understand Kempo / Kenpo is an art that places a large amount of training time on specific self-defense techniques (ex: cross wrist grab). But when sparring came into that class module or as was more often the case on a seperate class day we did not "spar" the self-defense techniques we were learning so much as we sparred more like a point karate style and sometimes kickboxing.

Could you please explain to me why we did this instead of sparring something more like scenario sparring which I would think would have been more relavant to all the SD techniques we were doing (This was many years ago and for all I know it was just how they had kids and young teens spar).

The element you're looking for is not included in the commercial system. There is a componant that addressed this and formed a bridge between your traditional self defense techniques and anticpated altercations thst result in "street sparring" self defense scenarios. Mr. Parker did however include what he termed "Offensive Formulas" as a suggestion in a formulized method of teaching tournament point sparring. These were included in the earlier commercial Big Red Operations Manual, but few actually taught them because of the somewhat complexity of the material.

 

[DavidCC]

There is a componant that addressed this and formed a bridge between your traditional self defense techniques and anticpated altercations thst result in "street sparring" self defense scenarios.

I'd love to learn more about this.

 

[Doc]

I'd love to learn more about this.

You already seen a bit of it Dave.

 

[JamesB]

You already seen a bit of it Dave.

tell me! tell me!

 

[Doc]

tell me! tell me!

Let's just say that the base AOD Drill is the beginning of the process.

 

[DavidCC]

Yes, I thought that was a little nugget of it. I am teaching tonight, and I had already planned to do the AOD with them

 

[Doc]

Yes, I thought that was a little nugget of it. I am teaching tonight, and I had already planned to do the AOD with them

The next time you come out, I'll demo some of the places this can take you, and how this training methodology (dances) bridges the gap between forms, sets, and traditional self defense techniques, and takes them to another level.

 

[JamesB]

Let's just say that the base AOD Drill is the beginning of the process.

I *love* AOD drill

Cannot begin to imagine where it goes from there, but I'm sure I'm going to like it all the same.

 

[Doc]

I *love* AOD drill

Cannot begin to imagine where it goes from there, but I'm sure I'm going to like it all the same.

Yes you will, guaranteed. Now (just to mess with you), imagaine that base drill being done with an inward elbow to the head instead of a punch.

These AOD's (called dances in the old days by Lefiti and Parker), are as engaging as traditional self defense techniques, and compliment them with the "bridge" is inserted, rasing the level of execution of everything. It is the primary componant of traditional "Directed Sparring."

 

[DavidCC]

The next time you come out, I'll demo some of the places this can take you, and how this training methodology (dances) bridges the gap between forms, sets, and traditional self defense techniques, and takes them to another level.

OK, I will definitely take you up on that

 

[SilatFan]

Let's just say that the base AOD Drill is the beginning of the process.

Doc,

Could you please talk some more about the A.O.D. drills and how and why you use them? How many are there? What do they lead to (I think in an earlier post you wrote that they were 'just the beginning')?

Have you had the opportunity to see Bob Orlando's Reflex Action DVDs or the late Terry Gibson's six volume set on Silat? They both have drills that look identical/very similar to the *limited* number of A.O.D. drills that I've seen. If you have seen them are their concepts similar to those that the A.O.D. drills are meant to relay? If not or you have not seen those sources could you talk at length as to what concepts they do teach. It always interests me to see the similarities that Kenpo and the Chin/Indo arts share.

Thanks

 

[Doc]

Doc,

Could you please talk some more about the A.O.D. drills and how and why you use them? How many are there? What do they lead to (I think in an earlier post you wrote that they were 'just the beginning')?

Have you had the opportunity to see Bob Orlando's Reflex Action DVDs or the late Terry Gibson's six volume set on Silat? They both have drills that look identical/very similar to the *limited* number of A.O.D. drills that I've seen. If you have seen them are their concepts similar to those that the A.O.D. drills are meant to relay? If not or you have not seen those sources could you talk at length as to what concepts they do teach. It always interests me to see the similarities that Kenpo and the Chin/Indo arts share.

Thanks

A.O.D. stands for Anticipated Offensive Drills. When moved from the drill to the application stage they become A.O. “techniques.”

Taught and utilized properly, they form a bridge of knowledge and applications between traditional forms, and sets to the self defense technique applications.

When the lessons that are learned are transferred to traditional “self defense techniques,” they raise the level of effectiveness and execution to an advanced degree.

One of the reasons in motion based kenpo most teach a “move first” philosophy is because the material does not have functional knowledge in its curriculum for anything else.

Unfortunately the “move first” edict, while acceptable on one level when someone punches or kicks, omits all the knowledge mechanisms necessary when that opportunity is absent. Thus, the reason why there are no grappling or hands on understandings inherent in the commercial system.

A.O.T.'s are practiced as A.O.D.’s and are mechanism learned for the expressed purposes of defending against, by word or actions, “announced” attacks. They are designed to teach effective mechanisms and timings in all aspects of the defense sciences, offensively and defensively. They are specifically created to bring swift conclusions to an anticipated assault, without resorting to the tradition self defense technique, which are designed for “surprise” assaults.

There are more A.O.’s than there are “Traditional Techniques.” I do not look at videos.

Offensive and defensive BAM's (Body Alignment Mechanisms), PAM's (Platform Alignment Mechanisms), misalignment, muscle re-assignment, nerve cavity presentation, PMD (Physical Mental Disassociation), etc. and a host of things that without studying the art would be difficult to comprehend the applications of, and "why" we don't do or watch instructional video.

 

[SilatFan]

“Taught and utilized properly, they form a bridge of knowledge and applications between traditional forms, and sets to the self defense technique applications.

When the lessons that are learned are transferred to traditional “self defense techniques,” they raise the level of effectiveness and execution to an advanced degree.”

- Can you explain what it is the A.O.D.s do to improve a students physical and/or mental execution of the “Self-Defense techniques”?

- Are the A.O.D.s something taught at the “intermediate” to “advanced” stages of a students training or do you do this in the beginning also? Is learning the Self-Defense techniques necessary as a pre-requisite before beginning the A.O.D.s?





“There are more A.O.’s than there are “Traditional Techniques.””

-Do you mean that there are more A.O.D.s or A.O.T.s than there are “Traditional Techniques” (or something else)?



“Offensive and defensive BAM's (Body Alignment Mechanisms), PAM's (Platform Alignment Mechanisms), misalignment, muscle re-assignment, nerve cavity presentation, PMD (Physical Mental Disassociation), etc. and a host of things that without studying the art would be difficult to comprehend the applications of, and "why" we don't do or watch instructional video.”

-Well I’m sure you’ve been around the block enough times that you probably wouldn’t see much of anything new to you but you might be shortening yourself by not watching some instructional videos. Like I said the few A.O.D.s I saw seemed physically really similar to exercises I’ve seen some Silat and Kuntao instructors teach and principals covered seemed similar enough as well that I’d think they would compliment one another tremendously. I also I think it’s a loss for a lot of people who could learn a ton from material that you could make on this subject. Maybe one day you’ll revisit your position on the issue.

 

[Doc]

“Taught and utilized properly, they form a bridge of knowledge and applications between traditional forms, and sets to the self defense technique applications. When the lessons that are learned are transferred to traditional “self defense techniques,” they raise the level of effectiveness and execution to an advanced degree.”

Can you explain what it is the A.O.D.s do to improve a students physical and/or mental execution of the “Self-Defense techniques”?

They teach execution over and above the basics by building on the foundation. Speed and signification of execution move to an advanced level.

Are the A.O.D.s something taught at the “intermediate” to “advanced” stages of a students training or do you do this in the beginning also? Is learning the Self-Defense techniques necessary as a pre-requisite before beginning the A.O.D.s?

They are taught in tandem with the appropriate level matching the students skill level.

“There are more A.O.’s than there are “Traditional Techniques.”

Do you mean that there are more A.O.D.s or A.O.T.s than there are “Traditional Techniques” (or something else)?

“There are more A.O.’s than there are “Traditional Techniques.”

“Offensive and defensive BAM's (Body Alignment Mechanisms), PAM's (Platform Alignment Mechanisms), misalignment, muscle re-assignment, nerve cavity presentation, PMD (Physical Mental Disassociation), etc. and a host of things that without studying the art would be difficult to comprehend the applications of, and "why" we don't do or watch instructional video.”

Well I’m sure you’ve been around the block enough times that you probably wouldn’t see much of anything new to you but you might be shortening yourself by not watching some instructional videos.

Believe it or not, there isn't anything new to see on any video. At a certain level the options become more finite. Less is more in true advanced arts.

Like I said the few A.O.D.s I saw seemed physically really similar to exercises I’ve seen some Silat and Kuntao instructors teach and principals covered seemed similar enough as well that I’d think they would compliment one another tremendously.

Maybe, but looking at video only taints the process and doesn't really add anything.

I also I think it’s a loss for a lot of people who could learn a ton from material that you could make on this subject. Maybe one day you’ll revisit your position on the issue.

Maybe, but looking at the video and seeing what I'm teaching is night and day. Not even close and just not visible in the medium.

Back in the sixties Parker's attempted to improve the officiating at the IKC with "Instant Replay." That's right Ed Parker had instant replay before anyone in any sport. He tried it one year and dumped it immediately. Rarely could a dispute be resolved because you really couldn't see what actually happened. Mr. Parker and I were looking at a video of a well known "Mak Gar" practitioner. He asked me, "What do you think? I said, "I'm not really sure but it really looks kinda like it's just really bad kenpo." Mr. Parker smiled and said, "Exactly!" and turned the dam thing off.

When I find a way that it can truly be beneficial to the student, then and only then will I give it a look. Right now I have students who use video as "notes" to their physical lessons. I can't see that changing significantly.

 

[kidswarrior]

Believe it or not, there isn't anything new to see on any video. At a certain level the options become more finite. Less is more in true advanced arts.

Now this is interesting. I hope I live long enough to learn/practice/teach enough to get to this point. By the way, I have experienced a parallel in my career field. At a certain point, there were no more classes to take/degrees to get/books to write. All the learning that was to come after that tipping point would be from experience (just doing it), so the parallels help me understand what Doc is saying.

Back in the sixties Parker's attempted to improve the officiating at the IKC with "Instant Replay." That's right Ed Parker had instant replay before anyone in any sport. He tried it one year and dumped it immediately. Rarely could a dispute be resolved because you really couldn't see what actually happened. Mr. Parker and I were looking at a video of a well known "Mak Gar" practitioner. He asked me, "What do you think? I said, "I'm not really sure but it really looks kinda like it's just really bad kenpo." Mr. Parker smiled and said, "Exactly!" and turned the dam thing off.

Wow. Living history. Gotta love it.

 

[Doc]

Now this is interesting. I hope I live long enough to learn/practice/teach enough to get to this point. By the way, I have experienced a parallel in my career field. At a certain point, there were no more classes to take/degrees to get/books to write. All the learning that was to come after that tipping point would be from experience (just doing it), so the parallels help me understand what Doc is saying.
Wow. Living history. Gotta love it.

Naw, just memories.

 

[SilatFan]

“There are more A.O.’s than there are “Traditional Techniques.”

Forgive me. This must be because english is my second language. Are you saying that there are more Anticipated Offenses than there are "traditional techniques"?

 

[LawDog]

There are three main ways of fighting,
1) Defense,
2) Offense,
3) Counter,
Optional:
4) To cut and run.
All of these are broken down into,
1) Single opponent - injured or uninjured,
2) Multi opponent - injured or uninjured.

A few golden rules one should consider,
1)To anticipate will get you "set up" by your opponent(s) if he/they use a fake/throw away technique on you.
2) During a confrontation "lack of thought" and "lack of emotion" with give you clarity during a confrontation.
a) If you think to much you will start to develope tunnel vison, much like when reading a book. If your opponent makes a quick move you may not see it. This is known as being caught "flat footed".
b) If you get emotional you will by pass your training and, let fear take over, get mad and begin strike away or even begin to second guess yourself.
:ultracool

 

[Doc]

Forgive me. This must be because english is my second language. Are you saying that there are more Anticipated Offenses than there are "traditional techniques"?

Yes.