Kempo being sold as Shaolin Kung Fu/Temple Kung Fu Exposed

[KennethKu]

Shaolin MA was passed down mouth to ear . Shaolin Temple was branded as enemy of the State by Manchu rulers (or invaders, depends on whose history books you read ). The Manchu rulers freaked out after they discovered how powerful the Shaolin monks were. They put the monks to the sword. (so much for unarmed combat. lol) The masters and grandmasters took the art to their early graves.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Shaolin MA was passed down mouth to ear . Shaolin Temple was branded as enemy of the State by Manchu rulers (or invaders, depends on whose history books you read ). The Manchu rulers freaked out after they discovered how powerful the Shaolin monks were. They put the monks to the sword. (so much for unarmed combat. lol) The masters and grandmasters took the art to their early graves.

So, does that make all forms of Kung fu that we practice now, who have originated from shaolin temple, new systems? If your quote is true, then how could any kung fu practiced today have originated in shaolin temple?


7sm

 

[KennethKu]

I don't know the detailed events regarding how each of them branched out (or in the words of my generation, bastardised) from Shaolin before that calamity. What happened to the Shaolin Temple and the Shaolin monks was historically accurate and documented. It happened during the rule of the Manchu, the last empire to rule China before the founding of modern China, which subsequently got divided into Communist mainland China and Nationalist Taiwan. The Manchu ruled China for several generations. And was pretty powerful till the last generation, as was always the case with worthless kids LOL.

That is why, I am highly wary of peoplo who claim to be successor to Shaolin. Hmmm, actually I am skeptical of any claim to anything that cannot be verified.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



So, does that make all forms of Kung fu that we practice now, who have originated from shaolin temple, new systems? If your quote is true, then how could any kung fu practiced today have originated in shaolin temple?


7sm

I already explained that it depends on each art of kung fu.

Wing chun survived because Ng Mui escaped and taught wing chun and hence came the name.

Some of the arts are just revived arts of what they taught to be.
Others are just generic information that did survive
Others may have held true to their past

 

[theneuhauser]

you seem pretty sure about wing chun. can you tell us a little more about the story of wing chun. after wing chun aqcuired these skills, how did it get passed on to others?

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


I already explained that it depends on each art of kung fu.

Wing chun survived because Ng Mui escaped and taught wing chun and hence came the name.

Some of the arts are just revived arts of what they taught to be.
Others are just generic information that did survive
Others may have held true to their past

I don't understand your method here. If the art "died off" with the destruction of Shoalin temple, how could it be "revived" ? It would have to be re-created. So somehow it must have survived through the destruction, right? I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on wing chun too.

7sm

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

so you dont believe the story that ng mui devised a simple combat system for a lady named wing chun or something close to that?

No, I believe it, because it was recorded. But you may ask how it survived and how was it able to be recorded? Well, Ng Mui (different sp's for her name) was able to escape the Manchu invasions. It is recorded and Yip Man I believe was the man who showed the records to preserve his art, as he is credited for making his art popular.

Ng Mui was one of the five elders who created wing chun.

However, legend goes she made it after she saw a fox and a crane battle but there is no way to make sure.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I don't understand your method here. If the art "died off" with the destruction of Shoalin temple, how could it be "revived" ? It would have to be re-created. So somehow it must have survived through the destruction, right? I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on wing chun too.

7sm

Wing chun is unique in that one of the founders escaped the temple.

Revived as in trying to recreate or putting the puzzle back together with the few basics. Each art has its history behind it, and although I'm not adept in each and every one in history, it's a very interesting subject. One involved an exiled monk who carried some of his knowledge (usually first to second-level). Another story I've read about is that a monk who escaped the Machu invasions. He didn't have a disciple, but he would practice the movements. Another person would watch and get the movements down without getting proper instruction. A lot of them don't have that much evidence, but the reason why it's almost fact that most of their knowledge died with them is...

There is not much of their training methods other than word of mouth, but are less reliable than the Greek poet Homer as it goes down too many times.

No written records were kept by the Shaolin monks to keep it secret.

The knowledge was passed on to the monks by higher-ranking monks. The knowledge died with them.

The only way it would be almost like it was back then is if it was first of all, recorded, then have instructors who learned the skills first-hand and thus, are able to collaborate on the recorded information. Unfortunately, most of it is gone.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



It depends on who's history book you are reading. I don't doubt that ALOT of knowledge and even probably some full systems were lost, but how can we say in history that knowledge was lost. Who knows what knowledge was lost, and how it was lost ?

Knowledge was lost... Manchurian records dealing with the Shaolin monks.

I'm not saying all knowledge was lost, but most of the knowledge was lost as a result of the reasons above.

Another reason was the lack of disciples or students the survivors took on and there were not that many survivors. And the survivors weren't usually elders although there is one case (Ng Mui) but a lof of them were just regular monks. So it would be like a student only taught for 20 years (which may seem like a lot but it isn't qualified traditionally anywhere to get a rank of "master" or a related rank like that) who also knew he didn't have the greatest knowledge in the art trying to teach a student who was not used to the Shaolin customs and training methods. It would be like putting a 12 year old couch potato through at least 5-8 hours of training like I went through in Korea.

For example, it would be like a high school student teaching a class of middle schoolers quantum physics.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

you seem pretty sure about wing chun. can you tell us a little more about the story of wing chun. after wing chun aqcuired these skills, how did it get passed on to others?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think I'm fairly certain

Ng Mui, one of the elders, fled the temple. She met a lady named wing chun who couldn't defend herself so Ng would train wing chun in what we call today, wing chun. Wing chun got passed down because she taught them herself. There is even a history tree of who was the master and the students, etc. all the way down to Yip Man and today, with over 500 instructors.

 

[Bod]

No written records were kept by the Shaolin monks to keep it secret

I heard that there were many books, but that they got burned during the cultural revolution.

It is pretty certain that Shaolin Monks did not all stay in the temple for life. Besides, the rawer forms of Kung Fu, were often known as 'farmer' or 'village' styles.

The Kung Fu I have seen performed by the monks looks like Wu-Shu, but they do get trained hard from what I saw on a documentary. The training didn't seem very different to the training I've seen done by Hong Kong and Malaysian chinese - i.e. stuff unaffected by the cultural revolution.

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I don't personally object to Shaolin Kempo's name, because the 'Kempo' bit qualifies the 'Shaolin' bit. It's not marketed as Kung Fu and is honest about it's origins.

 

[7starmantis]

IT just seems that you are basing your fact of the lost arts on the issue of written documentation. I just don't believe that it must be written to be preserved. Your speak of the Shoalin secrecy but what better secrecy is there than no written documentation? I believe without a doubt that the training methods were lost, but it seems your speaking more of a leneage of the art rather than the techniques and forms of the art itself. Sure the founders and first students are gone, but thats the beauty of disciples. I can't believe that every practitioner of a art taht was at "master" level was destroyed, I don't think that would be possible.


7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Bod


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I don't personally object to Shaolin Kempo's name, because the 'Kempo' bit qualifies the 'Shaolin' bit. It's not marketed as Kung Fu and is honest about it's origins.

What do you mena the Kempo bit qualifies the Shoalin bit? I don't understand.

7sm

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

IT just seems that you are basing your fact of the lost arts on the issue of written documentation. I just don't believe that it must be written to be preserved. Your speak of the Shoalin secrecy but what better secrecy is there than no written documentation? I believe without a doubt that the training methods were lost, but it seems your speaking more of a leneage of the art rather than the techniques and forms of the art itself. Sure the founders and first students are gone, but thats the beauty of disciples. I can't believe that every practitioner of a art taht was at "master" level was destroyed, I don't think that would be possible.


7sm

Nope, as I've said, some arts survived.

But a lot of their knowledge died with the monks. Techniques and forms, well, even if they were lost, a lot of the techniques were either around human biomechanics or animal motion. To "revive" it would be for a person to bring it back either purposely or out of coincidence. Some forms? I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them survived or changed. There are no records on the forms as in kata-type form not form form if you know what I mean.

Then comes a lot of problems with knowledge being lost. For the people who did survive, a portion of them took on disciples. But, I doubt everything was passed on and since it is customary to give the secrets until they were worthy (in almost all traditional arts) but yes, a lot of them weren't just able to be passed down.

In retrospect, some Shaolin arts did survive like wing chun, but knowledge was lost in many areas from training to a few techniques.

 

[7starmantis]

So do you have a list of the arts you believe survived and the ones that were recreated? Or how to you go about judging that in an art ?


7sm

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

So do you have a list of the arts you believe survived and the ones that were recreated? Or how to you go about judging that in an art ?


7sm

Judging it in an art. I don't judge arts. Some techniques are found in a variety of arts. A whole art being recreated? Very unlikely. Techniques being revived? Probably. Training methods surviving? Not likely.

But, I do know that wing chun did survive like I've said before.

What I'm basically trying to say is this is probably very different from the things the original monks practiced in before the Manchu invasion.

And schools saying that they teach Northern or Southern Shaolin are even bigger frauds. Too general a term.

 

[Bod]

What do you mena the Kempo bit qualifies the Shoalin bit? I don't understand.

If the school had just Shaolin written, you'd take it for a kung fu school. But Shaolin Kempo? I'd immediately take that for a Kempo school. Maybe just Kempo would be more straightforward.

And schools saying that they teach Northern or Southern Shaolin are even bigger frauds. Too general a term.

I don't know. Northern Shaolin would probably be Long Fist or Northern Five Animals. Southern Shaolin would be Southern Five Animals or Five Ancestors or a bit of both. I've often heard Shaolin to be a synonym for Five Animals, even though it is of course a much broader term.

If it was anything else but these arts I'd be somewhat suspicious about the founder's motives. The worst I've seen is Nam Pai Chaun (North South Fists) which has the practitioners popping into TKD stances but incorporating iron rings and something they call push hands. I've also seen people launch into obvious karate stances, while calling themselves a Kung Fu school. Often they'll borrow the names of stances or punches, usually from Wing Chun, and they'll mix them up.

They usually give themselves away by not saluting to middle left and right at the beginning of a form too. (Does Tai Chi do this? They seem to do a middle, right, left movement as the first 3 moves where they bring their feet together after each one. Is this a 'hidden' salute?)

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


What I'm basically trying to say is this is probably very different from the things the original monks practiced in before the Manchu invasion.

Yeah, I see what your saying, I just always categorized that as evolution of the art, not necesarily a loss. But I do see your point, and I agree.

If the school had just Shaolin written, you'd take it for a kung fu school. But Shaolin Kempo? I'd immediately take that for a Kempo school. Maybe just Kempo would be more straightforward.

Yes, I think it would be more straightforward. I don't see how Shaolin and Kempo can go together at all.

I don't know. Northern Shaolin would probably be Long Fist or Northern Five Animals. Southern Shaolin would be Southern Five Animals or Five Ancestors or a bit of both. I've often heard Shaolin to be a synonym for Five Animals, even though it is of course a much broader term.

I think it would be more appropriate to use the term kung fu where you used shaolin. Shaolin referes to the arts leneage more than the specific style. Northern Kung Fu would be long fist. Southern Kung Fu would be 5 animals. Certain styles may have the leneage of Shaolin such as 7*pm. I think that is the correct usage of Shaolin.

JMHO
7sm

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Bod



I don't know. Northern Shaolin would probably be Long Fist or Northern Five Animals. Southern Shaolin would be Southern Five Animals or Five Ancestors or a bit of both. I've often heard Shaolin to be a synonym for Five Animals, even though it is of course a much broader term.

If it was anything else but these arts I'd be somewhat suspicious about the founder's motives. The worst I've seen is Nam Pai Chaun (North South Fists) which has the practitioners popping into TKD stances but incorporating iron rings and something they call push hands. I've also seen people launch into obvious karate stances, while calling themselves a Kung Fu school. Often they'll borrow the names of stances or punches, usually from Wing Chun, and they'll mix them up.

They usually give themselves away by not saluting to middle left and right at the beginning of a form too. (Does Tai Chi do this? They seem to do a middle, right, left movement as the first 3 moves where they bring their feet together after each one. Is this a 'hidden' salute?)

What I meant by Northern and Southern styles is that they teach it as a whole.

Like a person saying they teach karate instead of what type.

 

[7starmantis]

I don't see how anyone could use the terms northern or shouthern Shaolin. Neither would be a correct usage and I would be wary of anyone who did use that termonology.


7sm