Keeping previously earned rank

[bscastro]

I like that. It is like I used to tell my students when I taught TKD, and I am now trying to do in my Jeet Kune Do class. I used to tell them to approach things new as a child would: asking questions, curious, and enthusiastic. This is not to be mistaken as being childish!

Bryan

 

[Shinzu]

i have seen some schools let high ranking students keep their old belts and put a white colored tape stripe on it. meaning that they are new to this system.

i have put on a white belt when starting a different style. i dont have a problem with it. i know what i know and a belt color will not change that.

 

[Chiduce]

If they are Black Belt and under 50, pass the stretch and basic foundation test of motion, throwing, striking, and verbal communication, etc, they can keep their belt. The basic test is just to check their teaching skills! If they are 50 or over and Black Belt, they can keep their belt. The 50 and over usually want to start over, so they start at 3rd brown. If the under 50 do not pass the stretch and foundation test; they start at 3rd brown. I have just critiqued my Black Belt over 50 in TKD's, last 3rd brown thesis and approved his testing for 2nd brown next weekend. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Stickboxer]

I’ve started over in the same WTF-type of Tae Kwon Do that I did before, in a different school in the same small town, foregoing what rank I had previously achieved. That was my choice, although I believe I shouldn’t really HAVE to. After all, everything from the forms to the various one-steps were practically the same; I had to relearn nothing. Now if I had switched from a WTF school to an ITF club, then yes, the difference in the material taught would have been significant enough to demand completely starting over as a white belt. Going from even more diverse styles, like a Kempo black belt deciding to take up Aikido, should without a doubt begin over!

Pretty much everyone here seems to agree that if you have a great deal of experience and skills from previous (or current) training in another art, then beginning in a new school as a white belt won’t be that bad... your talents would in most cases propel you through the ranks faster than normal.

I really don’t see much of a problem with a black belt in another style working with my newer students, or a great kicker who has years of TKD under his belt beginning in my school or any other as a “newbie,” unless of course he or she was sparring other white belts and wiping the floor with them. Then again, keep in mind that many of these cocky people, forced to begin again in a new system, are often shocked to face white belts after fighting other black belts... white belts don’t know the patterned, predictable ways higher belts fight and often surprise more seasoned opponents who don’t expect THAT angle or a kick quite like THAT, etc.


Let me also offer something I’ve posted before on another thread (“how long to black belt”):

“My students can advance when they've reached certain degrees of technical knowledge, physical attribute development, and the like. Additionally, there are time requirements in the form of both total hours logged at their level AND minimum amount of months to have passed. That way, people can’t go too fast, yet those who go slow (whether they be hard-learners or part-time students due to other obligations) can still participate at their own speed.

For example, Phase One students in my school must put in at least 25 hours over at least six months. With two class hours available per week for this level, they need come once a week to make their requirements. FYI: Phase Two students must come to two of the three available classes per week; Phase Three learners need to attend three of the four open classes each week.

When a newer student shows a great deal of skill, likely from previous training in a similar style, I look to see if senior students and assistant instructors agree that the newer student should be allowed to accelerate in rank testing. When that happens, I take away the minimum months requirements and allow the newer student to pass as fast as one could possibly take the needed number of classes. For example, a Phase One student could in theory take two classes per week and reach their needed 25 hours within 3 months, not 6.”

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi All,

I agree with most of not all said, yetm here
is my two cents.

I always have my Rank Belt with me as well as
a White belt. If I travel and I visit another
club I wear the white belt. If I am invited
to show up as representative of my art then
I wear my belt of rank.

In another instance, if a student leaves, for
what ever reason and comes back, they can
maintain there rank and wear their belt, but they
do not test until they are truely ready for the
next level. No matter how much time they had
before and how much time they spend re-learning
or fine tuning their techniques.

Now, with students from other clubs from the same
art, may also enter into the club and wear their
rank, but they will have to show a complete
review of the techniques tested at our school
before the student can progress in rank.

If it is another person with rank out side of
our club and not invited as a guest, I tell them
to wear loose clothes, (No need to buy the uniform
if they do not stay.) After they have been around
for a few classes and truely have had a chance
to decide their interest, then they can wear a
white belt with a uniform. The uniform and belt
are required to test, but no reason to make them
buy the uniform if all they want is to learn with
no rank ;~).

Well that is my two cents

Best Regards

Rich

 

[Shinzu]

very good points rich. i agree.

 

[Stickboxer]

I'm also of the opinion that if a student leaves for whatever reason and comes back later, they can retain their old rank. They may just be at that rank for longer than normal. I was in that position myself...

However, what do you do when that student has regressed in attributes and forgotten the lower-belt material? What is its a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do who doesn't remember any of the one-steps? Who screws up on even the white belt forms? Whose flexibility is nil?

As for letting students in from other schools and styles, many teachers don't even let "experienced" students join their schools; I've also visited schools where I wasn't allowed to watch the upper-level training. These kinds of schools have been discussed on other threads, so I'm not bringing them up to criticise that mentality here. In fact, I embrace the variety of black belts (or what-have-you) coming from other styles and mixing it up in my school. Hell, I've been known to turn the class over to a visiting student of another style, even a lower-ranking student, in order to enrich the class with the different types of arts available to us. For example, one guy joined up who had high ranking in Judo, so I asked him before class one day if he'd like to share some of the throws from the art. Another time, I had a student who cross-trained in TKD use TKD-specific kicks during sparring.

I have one way to combat the issue of dealing with different levels of skill and experience, and that's by mixing it up in classes between levels. I take person A and person B and put them together to do drill C; whether one person is a newbie and the other a 3rd degree black belt in Kempo is irrelevant. Both learn.

Another way to avoid the whole belt rank thing is to have no belt ranks. While we have colored shirts to tell me what level each student is (so I can look at them and quickly have a good idea what they know, what they still need to know, and approximately where they should be at), we have no uniform and generally go by the rule "wear what you'd wear to an aerobics class," with the exception of classes where we will be grappling or doing environmental work.

 

[Rich Parsons]

How to handle the student who has left and has
now come back but does not remember or has not
the physical conditioning?


In our school, we do not have lots of students,
nor do we get a lot of traffic. So the appearance
of a hi ranking student no performing up to
standard is not the same situation in other
clubs that have mroe visability. I would still
honor the rank if it had been given by our club.
If no improvement at all is being made, then
a talk with the student might be in order, but
this would be after a period of time.

If the rank was from another club within the same
art and after a few classes it painfully obvious,
I would handle it with the student off line.
Asking them if they would feel more comfortable
starting over? This of course would be with
the instructors guidance and assurance.

Just my thoughts

Rich

 

[tshadowchaser]

Nice posts Rich and Stickboxer.
As I've said befor I go to new schools as a white belt. Once in a while the instructor will insist I wear a black belt but I don't like to.
I like trhe idea of wear only loose clothing that way if I'm in the back row people won't be asking what I study and my rank. I think I'll try that next time I start in another school.
Shadow:asian:

 

[Stickboxer]

Some big organizations insist that their instructors meet and train with the founder every so often. With Paul Vunak, it's once a year. With Hock Hochheim, its once every 16 months. While my school is hardly as large as those guys, when my highest students go off and begin teaching in their own schools, they will have to keep meeting and training with me for two reasons:
1. to keep up on the latest training methods and updates,
2. so I can make sure their abilities haven't regressed. After all, they are representatives of mine! To have them perform poorly reflects on me.

This mentality should go through any belt rank, in my opinion. I also believe higher belts should help lower belts. What happens when a newcomer sees an advanced student who is performing poorly and doesn't know the material? Maybe we shouldn't let a student, whether from another style or returning after taking time off, keep their rank. Just playing devil's advocate.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Stickboxer

Some big organizations insist that their instructors meet and train with the founder every so often. With Paul Vunak, it's once a year. With Hock Hochheim, its once every 16 months. While my school is hardly as large as those guys, when my highest students go off and begin teaching in their own schools, they will have to keep meeting and training with me for two reasons:
1. to keep up on the latest training methods and updates,
2. so I can make sure their abilities haven't regressed. After all, they are representatives of mine! To have them perform poorly reflects on me.

This mentality should go through any belt rank, in my opinion. I also believe higher belts should help lower belts. What happens when a newcomer sees an advanced student who is performing poorly and doesn't know the material? Maybe we shouldn't let a student, whether from another style or returning after taking time off, keep their rank. Just playing devil's advocate.

Good comment on staying current with your
instructor. I agree.

Yes higher ranked belts should help lower ranked
belts. I agree again.

HMMMMM it is hard to do this DA thing if we
agree.

What if I suggest the student, who is having this
trouble after coming back, wears no rank, until
the instructor lets him know he put his belt back
on. This is not completely starting over, and it
avoids the higher ranking student needing
assistance from lower ranks.


Now to volley the Devils'Advocate idea back



I beleive that everyone has something to teach me
even if it is patience. Now, in a specific art
for a specific technique it would be assumed that
the higher ranking student should know it as well
or better than the lower rank. This is fine when
discussing forms and single step techniques.
Application and putting the bits and pieces into
the mixing bowl and seeing what comes out, allows
the lower rank to give perspective and insight
that the higher rank may not have seen given the
experience of the respective students.

I hope for a pizza or a cake to come out of the
mixing bowl, sometimes I get soup, but only have
a fork with me ;~).

Just another thought
:asian:

Rich

 

[arnisador]

Modern Arnis black belts have typically come with expiration dates for some time--if you don't keep it current, you lose it!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador

Modern Arnis black belts have typically come with expiration dates for some time--if you don't keep it current, you lose it!

Arnisador,

Question: If you go to your instructor for your
recertification is this sufficient? i.e. a BB
under Tim Hartman maintains his rank by training
with Tim. But, if teh Prof was alive would this
same BB have to train with the Prof. instead of
Mr Hartman? I realize this is theoretical in
example, but I am curious.


Thanks

Rich

 

[arnisador]

I was speaking of before the Professor's death, really--I don't know what the various organizations are doing now. At that time one had to go to an official IMAF event which typically meant an event with the Professor. Going to one's own instructor was not enough.

Again, I don't know what the story is now! There are too many Modern Arnis groups.