Katana

[Sukerkin]

Not a problem, Howard.

It is ever going to be impossible to make a one-size-fits all comment when talking about any art and that becomes even worse when we start to think about arts that intermix .

We can only ever speak from our own experiences and observations (and those of our teachers) and our words are opinions not facts at the end of the day.

I sense that a thread might be in the making on this but I'm at work right now so I can't be starting it until tonight at the soonest ... and I've just had a call from reception thelling me that my cars got a puncture ... ever had one of those days when you regret getting out of bed :lol:.

 

[jks9199]

I think Sukerkin's comment was a reasonable, broad assessment about a lot of aikido and karate schools. Even though founders of the arts may have had a solid background, the art in question isn't a sword art. Generally, enough ends up being taught or passed along to go through a few kata or drills, but that's not the same thing as real training with the sword. I've seen aikido and karate students swing a bokken around with little concept of the cutting motion -- just like I've seen students in both throw "puches" during kata, one-steps, or similar exercises that wouldn't scare -- let alone harm! -- a fly. Nor does that limited training necessarily involve training in the assessment of the quality of a blade. Of course, there are schools that are the exception, where the students really learn the traditional sword art along with aikido or jujitsu or karate. But they are exceptions...

I know enough of the use of several blades to apply them, and to go through a form with them. I don't claim to be an expert in them. Of those, I'd feel confident assessing perhaps three or four types of blades, most of which are related to each other. I'd be absolutely out of my depth assessing a katana -- though I probably can recognize the difference between a very good blade and a very bad blade. I've owned they apochryphal "sword like object" or wall hanger, so I can recognize one of them...

 

[Fiendlover]

For those recommending that our young friend find an instructor in his area, you're probably going to run into problems.

From his profile.


Presumably his instructor approved of the previous junker he was training with.

hmmmm. i bought my katana and ive only been to three classes with it and my shihan wasnt the one teaching the class so he didnt expect it nor did he sell it. another sensei sold it to me. but today i was told that the sword i hav is for show and to be mounted on a wall. he told me to call headquarters where my sensei gets his sword straight from japan nd they are strictly made for battle. they're supposed to be very high quality swords and knowing my sensei id believe him.

PS. im a female thank you.

 

[Sukerkin]

Nice to see another lass taking an interest in the sword arts :tup:.

The good advice given in previous posts still stands tho'. If you want to learn how to use a katana go to a dojo where that is what they teach. Of course, if your karate sensei holds grade in iai or somesuch then that is a moot point .

One small aside tho', to refer to any sword, not just a katana, in terms akin to 'battle ready' is a warning sign - it's an advertising term and one best avoided as it's not well thought of.

 

[tahuti]

Practical demonstration what bad sword is:

 

[Fiendlover]

Nice to see another lass taking an interest in the sword arts :tup:.

The good advice given in previous posts still stands tho'. If you want to learn how to use a katana go to a dojo where that is what they teach. Of course, if your karate sensei holds grade in iai or somesuch then that is a moot point .

One small aside tho', to refer to any sword, not just a katana, in terms akin to 'battle ready' is a warning sign - it's an advertising term and one best avoided as it's not well thought of.

thank you. lasses rock lol. yeah sensei and shihan do hold grades in katana teaching and my sensei is a friend of mine and he knows swords so i know he wouldnt sell me a bad one. hed check it over for me first.

 

[Fiendlover]

Practical demonstration what bad sword is:

oh that sucks! but thats what he gets for trying to sell that lol

 

[jks9199]

thank you. lasses rock lol. yeah sensei and shihan do hold grades in katana teaching and my sensei is a friend of mine and he knows swords so i know he wouldnt sell me a bad one. hed check it over for me first.

What is "katana teaching"?

There are several (maybe several dozen!) extant schools of Japanese swordsmanship. Each has its own name, and its own special techniques or tactics. If you're interested in learning a Japanese sword art, I'd think that learning the name of the art you'll be taught would rank pretty high in importance -- or at least learning the specific origin of the created style you're learning.

Of course, I'm also more than a little shocked that anyone would let you use a wall hanger to learn a Japanese sword art without inspecting it...

 

[howard]

Just in case anybody's interested, here's the Yanagi ryu clip I referred to above.

This is a classic example of the integration of sword techniques into empty-hand techniques, which you'll see in few arts these days. Mr Angier is one of the best. The sword work, like the Aikijujutsu, is top-notch.

 

[Sukerkin]

Thanks for the link, Howard. I'm not all the way through it yet but have seen the initial 'swordwork' segment.

It highlights the problem we all have when discussing our arts, in that I'm not qualified to judge whether it's good or bad as it's quite different from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, which is what I study.

From an MJER perspective there were things that I saw that do not sit comfortably with what I have been taught (e.g. 'weak' grip one handed rear thrusts); even the katana design was 'incorrect' (tsuka far too long and blades too long for the practitioners size) .

That doesn't mean it was bad, just different from what I do. Plus, I'm notoriously critical (especially of my own performance), even having the cheek to point out minute faults which high Dan grades in my own art commit to video :lol:.

There is also the point that video is never going to substitute for being there and observing. Feeling the zanshin and seme within a kata is a whole lot different than watching the moves on tele . After all, on video, I look terrible ... what? ... I don't understand? ... you mean I am that bad? :faints:.

 

[howard]

Hi Sukerkin,

Yes, it's different from MJER. But it was a proven sword method, in that it was used in real combat.

The very long tsuka is characteristic of Yanagi-ryu. I don't know nearly enough about its history to explain why.

The thing I most like about the clip is that one can see the relationship between the sword techniques and the Aikijujutsu techniques. For example, the sword vs. sword defense of stepping into your enemy's right side, cutting diagonally upward across his body, continuing your step through, under his right arm, pivoting and cutting downward diagonally across his back is represented movement for movement in the Aikijujutsu technique known as shihonage (which differs from Aikido's version of the technique with the same name).

I realize this point is not really on topic, but to my eye, Angier sensei's Aikijujutsu is at a very high level indeed. His is a very interesting and unique history.

Nice chatting with you. :asian:

 

[Sukerkin]

Swordwork from different ryu and different genres is always fascinating to me as viewing it can show you that there's truth in the old adage that "there's only so many ways to skin a cat".

For example, the movements you described above sound very similar in intent to an Eishin ryu Batto Ho kata called "Shatto".

It can also open your eyes with surprise at an application of the sword to a situation that you had not come across before - that's never a bad thing either.

I do, reluctantly, concur that we've strayed away from the OP at this juncture but also agree that it's been nice to chat, especially in the sword forums for a change . Hopefully this is the start of a new trend and we sword-slingers (of any ilk) can get a few posts going in our fora :tup:.

 

[Senjojutsu]

“Muto-dori” is the general Japanese term used describing disarming techniques against a swordsman opponent while being unarmed. In full disclosure mode, it is also a current thread over on SFI with JSA adherents about this very subject.

There are historical tales of famous sword masters, who appeared to have honed this muto-dori skills and could perform it in “demonstrations” – and some war story examples. But overall I feel the cold-hearted Bushi class always thought of it as a last ditch effort. As in - it beats dying, but you probably will end up dead. Warfare isn’t about sportsmanship and fair play - it’s about defeating your enemy. If you happened to end up unarmed on a battlefield, duel or during an attack, well, we now call that having a bad day at the office. And the military mind, back then and now, should train for worse case scenarios; try staying awake all night, have no food or water, strenuously working out for 4-5 hours, then try out your techniques (on a muddy field). Or some “muto-dori” techniques were derived from both opponents being armed - but the distance was closed to armpit-to-armpit thereby limiting long sword cutting techniques and leading to grappling movements.

Which is why I want to talk about the different perspectives presented in some previous posts.

To the unarmed martial styles, as in Aikido and Daito Ryu, usage of these muto dori techniques help “validate” their art’s effectiveness. Like, see me using this technique I can defeat my fellow stylist who is armed & attacking with a sword.

To the JSA-centric artists if practicing muto dori techniques, they use it as a “verification” of the obvious - the house odds are clearly on the man holding the long, sharp, pointy thingy. Their mindset, distancing and movements are that of a swordsman. If I had to place a wager out of my wallet, I would place money on the most experience swordsman successfully using a muto dori technique, not the most experienced Aiki practioner.

Doesn’t mean it can’t be done – just very, very unlikely – I mean the best team doesn’t always win on the field, e.g., February 3rd, 2008, Phoenix, Arizona.

Sorry, some cuts will never heal.
:wink1:

 

[Sukerkin]

That's an excellently worded post, Senjo. It was the point I was trying to make but I failed the eloquence challenge .

The techniques are not worthless, far from it but they are far from a 'safe bet' unless there's a disparity in skill levels. It's still a shot worth taking if it's the only one left to you tho'.

When I talked about "bad swordsman" in my earlier post, I did not mean to imply that the art had only bad swordsmen but rather that the openings presented for the aikido techniques would be generally present only when the swordsman made a mistake or was less skilled.

As an example, in watching the video linked by Howard I could see the sacrifice of kensen that was happening in the disarming demonstrations i.e. the sword wielder was pulling the sword back and away from Sensei, thus presenting the opening, rather than keeping the threat present during furikaburi. It still wouldn't be impossible to come in under the blade but I wouldn't like to try it .

 

[howard]

To the unarmed martial styles, as in Aikido and Daito Ryu, usage of these muto dori techniques help “validate” their art’s effectiveness. Like, see me using this technique I can defeat my fellow stylist who is armed & attacking with a sword.

To the JSA-centric artists if practicing muto dori techniques, they use it as a “verification” of the obvious - the house odds are clearly on the man holding the long, sharp, pointy thingy. Their mindset, distancing and movements are that of a swordsman. If I had to place a wager out of my wallet, I would place money on the most experience swordsman successfully using a muto dori technique, not the most experienced Aiki practioner.

Hi,

A couple of points, if I might.

- As I noted above, I can't speak for modern Aikido. I can, however, speak from experience in Daito-ryu.

The only point I was trying to make is that in original Aikido, as in Daito-ryu, there is an integration of technique and principles between the sword and unarmed combat. Many of Daito-ryu's techniques are defenses against either sword attacks, or attempts to prevent you from using your own sword. Given the context of Daito-ryu's techniques, your own sword would most likely have been a wakizashi rather than a katana, because you were inside the threshold of the lord's house, and you didn't carry your katana in your obi there.

Daito-ryu training does not aim to "validate" its techniques against a swordsman. While a number of the techniques derive from sword techniques, the techniques themselves apply general principles that can be used against a variety of attacks.

No legitimate Daito-ryu instructor will ever try to convince you that if you get proficient at executing ippondori or any other technique that derives from a sword attack defense, you will be able to defend yourself against an attack by a competent swordsman. Quite the contrary... such people are smart enough to know that your odds against a swordsman who knows what he's doing are pretty bad. Theres' a parallel in other Jujutsu ryu, and in the Hapkido kwans that have remained faithful to what Choi Yong Sul taught after returning from Japan, in knife defenses. Similar to what you describe for sword attack defenses, knife defenses competently taught are identified as a last resort. You have two choices: certain serious/lethal injury, or near-certain serious/lethal injury. I think the rational man chooses near-certain every time.

While I agree fully that the smart money would be on the skilled swordsman against an unarmed opponent, I don't believe that concerns the connecton between sword techniques and unarmed techniques. What about the situation of a two skilled swordsman facing each other - one armed with a katana, the other unarmed? Does the swordsman win that exchange every time?

Out of curiosity, do you train in any form of empty-hand combat in addition to JSA?

 

[Sukerkin]

Out of curiosity, do you train in any form of empty-hand combat in addition to JSA?

I'm not sure if you were asking Senjo or me there, so, to be on the safe side I'll 'fess up .

I did Lau Gar Kung Fu for more than a decade until my near fatal bike accident but I have not trained per se in any of the Japanese empty-hand arts (the closest being weekly sparring matches against Shotokan and Shukokai students).

Nice post above by the way; it elaborated and clarified your points very well :tup:.

 

[Senjojutsu]

Hello Howard,

Since you have asked, yes I have trained in Shotokan katate, TKD and American Kempo styles, and have experienced some Daito Ryu and Aikido by osmosis (via training partners).

BTW, I did not want to appear to bash unarmed arts, I respect them.

I do think training for weapons defenses have been deemphasized within some of the unarmed arts during the past few decades, or certainly watered down – from the historical roots of the training bias that your opponent would be armed. Or worse - in some USA commercial schools weapons training have become the segmented/privilege knowledge area open only to the advanced students. I see that is another active interesting thread over in Karate about weapons and their impact to movements, once they stop talking about Hamlet.

During the past few years I have noticed a new buzz-word has appeared, “aliveness”, or the concept of resisting opponents. If you read some of the keyboard warriors on other boards – you get the idea that MMA/derivatives are the only real deal out there. I remember my original Shotokan instructors from my youth were pretty “alive” - as if you didn’t block they would hit you.

I also think of when someone states; “You know, the U.S. Military really needs to teach more H2H skills”. Well what should be the training focus and objectives of a modern-day foot soldier? Maybe better proficiency using M16A2s, M4 Carbines, M9 Berettas, Long-range Sniper rifles, M240B Machine Guns et. al. Only then if those don’t work maybe it is time for bayonets and H2H.

Much as the Bushi would have focused on using the most efficient weapon against the opponent’s distance and the tactical situation – such as your indoor example. Romanticized thoughts it was not. It has been cataloged that a Samurai warrior would have been exposed to at least eighteen martial arts disciplines, with some more esoteric/conceptual ones also thrown in – maybe that is why it was considered a full time job.

 

[pgsmith]

yeah sensei and shihan do hold grades in katana teaching and my sensei is a friend of mine and he knows swords so i know he wouldnt sell me a bad one.

This brings up an interesting point that should definitely be made in my opinion. Sukerkin touched on it a bit when he mentioned that Aiki-ken doesn't really relate to the Japanese sword arts. This is a truism by the way, aiki-ken is specifically to teach better aikido, not better sword arts. Anyway, the "katana" training that is done in the vast majority of karate dojo, especially American karate, has no real relation to the Japanese sword arts. Anyone that has seen both traditional Japanese sword arts and karate tournament weapons kata can vouch for that fact. It's an important distinction to make whenever discussing the sword arts as what is done for karate tournament weapons kata is distinctly different than what is done in the Japanese sword arts. They require different tools of different dimensions to perform very different movements.

 

[Fiendlover]

So I finally got my new katana! It very much looks like the sword you see next to the title "Sword Arts Talk". It's a little longer than my other katana and it's extrmely sharp. My sensei, (the one I mentioned already) said that it could cut through 7" of bamboo. He also gave me two extra subas, a cloth (other than the sheath) to wrap it around, and a cleaning kit for free. The suba that's already attached has a samuri on a horse which looks pretty awesome! Another one has two samuri's on horseback charging one another and the other one has a dragon that looks like you would see in parades. I was happy when I finally got it yesterday. It is a really good quality sword and I can tell the differences between that one and my old one. :boing1: