Karate ni sente nashi

[exile]

There's some excellent food for thought about `no first strike in Karate' (with evidence from his own writing that Funakoshi had no problems with preemptive striking as part of Karate's overall strategic plan) here and here. Both articles are part of the free downloadable set on Iain Abernethy's almost unbelievably good web site; Abernethy wrote the first essay, and one of his guest writers the second. Together they add a lot of historical perspective and ethical depth to the issue.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I tend to suscribe to the theory that blocks = strikes & strikes = blocks.

What's the difference between a Shoto Uke (knifehand block) & a Shoto Tsuki (knifehand strike)?

The best defense is to avoid the fight in the first place. The best way to defend against an incoming attack is to avoid it by moving out of the way. If you practice that, then blocking movements delivered with power are for punishing the attacking limb, while "gentler" deliveries are a form of contact manipulation. Or you can retarget the block to the body or head and it could be a strike - possibly even pre-emptive depending on your timing. In that case we could say that katas do teach pre-emptive strikes. So perhaps the opening Gedan Barai Uke (down block) in Pinan Shodan could be a Tetsui Ken (hammer fist) to the kidney or the opening Chudan Uke (chest level block) in Pinan Sandan & Pinan Godan could be a Uraken Tsuki (back fist) to the face.

To me the sentiment expressed in 'Karate ni sente nashi' is we don't start fights we finish them.

_Don Flatt

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I owe exile some thanks because he referenced this article on a different thread but I found a quote extremely relevant to the question of the OP.

Funakoshi did more than change his name - he changed his tune. Before World War II, what the Japanese refer to as the War of the Pacific, Funakoshi’s books had a particular jingoistic ring to them. He supposed that karate training was good for young soldiers to learn to take into battle, and that karate was also good training for conquered people so that they could be disciplined into civilized Japanese citizens [10].
This message is a far cry from his later works in which he protests that there is no initiative in karate (karate ni sente nashi from the Niju Kun) and that karate is the study of peace. It is not too strange that Funakoshi, who might be described as a master politician and even a social chameleon, would so adeptly alter his message to suit American Occupational Authorities after having constructed one that was music to the ears of the Imperial Japanese 20 years earlier.
Here’s a man, however, who is able to quickly determine the direction of the wind and just as quickly adapt himself to it for his own success and acceptance. It is not suprising that a child of an alcoholic would be so desiring of the acceptance of others. Funakoshi is a classic case of this. The Japanese needed him to leave the wife behind, so he did. They needed Japanese names for things - they got them. They appeared to resent China - forget about China. Whatever they wanted, they got. Funakoshi moved to the beat of the music that happened to be playing at the time. He was a master politician and diplomat. He was a survivor in hard times.

_Don Flatt

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

I personally feel that many of the martial arts have gone away from the martial and more towards the art, ie the spike in tournament competitions, etc. And obviously if you are competing and you are always waiting for the opponent to make the first move, it does lessen your chances of winning a little. I train in a purely traditional style which is more along the lines of opponent comes in to punch and wham you smash his arm so he won't punch you anymore. Now obviously this doesn't conform to the laws of society, so in essence we must water down certain techniques to a degree.
Anywho, I do believe that Karate is an art of self defence and this does include the pre-emptive strike, and that though a Karate practitioner should not seek out a fight, if you are forced into a fight, you should do what is necessary to win.
​

 

[chinto]

I personally feel that many of the martial arts have gone away from the martial and more towards the art, ie the spike in tournament competitions, etc. And obviously if you are competing and you are always waiting for the opponent to make the first move, it does lessen your chances of winning a little. I train in a purely traditional style which is more along the lines of opponent comes in to punch and wham you smash his arm so he won't punch you anymore. Now obviously this doesn't conform to the laws of society, so in essence we must water down certain techniques to a degree.

Anywho, I do believe that Karate is an art of self defence and this does include the pre-emptive strike, and that though a Karate practitioner should not seek out a fight, if you are forced into a fight, you should do what is necessary to win.​

yep in general I gota agree.. if you are forced into the fight, didnt see it comeing and leave before it happend... dispatch the attacker, quickly and effecently. but it is always always best to just not be there for the fight.

 

[TimoS]

I tend to suscribe to the theory that blocks = strikes & strikes = blocks

Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. True, a block can be an attack, depending on the timing and a what looks like a punch can and sometimes is actually a block

 

[TimoS]

Chokoi Motobu has been qouted as saying Karate is the first move
i like it

marlon

Oh yes, "karate wa sente". It is not nearly as often quoted as "karate ni sente nashi". At first they seem to contradict each other, but in my opinion, they complement each other. What I mean is that you use karate to defend yourself, but if you have to use it, seize the initiative as soon as you can. Don't wait for the actual physical attack

 

[exile]

The citations I provided earlier give excellent reasons, both strategically and ethically grounded, for pre-emption of an incoming attack, as a number of posters have already advocated in what I find very sensible terms. I doubt that many MAists go out of their way to look for trouble (although as we know, some of the greatest ever—Chotku Kyan, Choki Motobu and the great Anko Itosu himself—seems to have done, particularly in their youth, though not only then); but one of the main reasons for the very existence of the MAs in the first place is the fact that there are people who intend us harm regardless of how little harm we've done to them. Acting ethically doesn't entail falling on your own sword to gratify your enemy.

It's true, though, that it's possible to abuse the notion of preemption; look at that thread in Horror Stories about the guy who damaged some homeless man's eye by attacking him with an umbrella, then claiming in court that he was excercises his right of preemptive defense. He lost, but the problem is, someone who sees the world teeming with dangers at that level of mental disturbance can use preemption as justification for totally unwarranted violence. The fact is, there's no sound principle that can't be manipulated by people with a loose grip on reality to justify pathological behavior. It doesn't invalidate the principle, but it does remind us that we better have all our ducks in a row when we call on something like imminent attack as a justification for preemtive striking—because while it's true that it's better to judged by twelve than carried by six, it's not exactly the most comfortable position to be in...

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

—because while it's true that it's better to judged by twelve than carried by six, it's not exactly the most comfortable position to be in...

That is by far my favorite use of that saying!

_Don Flatt

 

[exile]

That is by far my favorite use of that saying!

_Don Flatt

Mine too... still, it's a sobering thought from any angle...

 

[chinto]

That is by far my favorite use of that saying!

_Don Flatt

yep gota say that if I am here where I live, or say in NY NY I will figure and act on the old saying " it is better to be judged by 12 then carried by six!" so I will dispatch the attacker as quickly and effecently as posible. I will use minumum force as I see it to preserve my life and health, but when in doubt I will stop that attacker!!!