Kamishin Ryu

[rutherford]

That's a 21 page thread. Can't you just say yes or no? It isn't that much of a request!!!!

There's copies of the scrolls posted near the end of that thread, Don. Ignore the discussion and read the scrolls yourself.

Sorry, I haven't slept in a while. But I'm still not gonna get in the middle of this.

Oh, and you really should consider setting the forum to 100 posts per page. Much easier to handle the big threads that way, even on a slow connection.

 

[kamishinkan]

Can someone explain something to me?...........

If Kuniba made Church his inheritor, then the document would read that he designated Church as soke.........

So could someone tell me if Church claimed that Kuniba made him a soke?

Church sensei never suggested that he was an inheritor to Kuniba sensei.

As far as Church sensei "creating" his own art of Kamishin Ryu and Kuniba naming him Soke. That is not the way it is done, the "Soke" title would usually ONLY be used for a situation of inheritance. Power sensei as well as many others that I know have seen (and held) the 30 foot long scroll of inheritance of the art that was re-named by Kuniba and Church sensei to Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu.

Church sensei never said Kuniba sensei "made him a Soke". It was always maintained that Kuniba sensei recognized his position as "Soke" of the inherited art now known as Kamishin Ryu.

Hope this helps,

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo

 

[ghp]

The way I recall, the scroll from Kim Chi-Koh sensei allegedly named Mr. Church as his inheritor and it was called a variety of names -- I've seen three names used by Mr. Church, one being "ram's fist" or "ram's head" -- I'd have to go through my files. The final name, as I recall, was Shorin-ji Tekken Ryu Kenpo (Shaolin Temple Iron-Fist Boxing System).

From Mr. Church's mouth to my ear is that Mr. Koh named him as inheritor; he showed that scroll to Kuniba sensei who borrowed it for a time (a week, I think) to review; then suggested Mr. Church reclassify the system using a Japanese methodology. The "Kuniba Scroll" was supposed to be his recognition from Kuniba sensei that he was "International Budo Instructor" and recognition as soke.

I think Don Roley's reading of my translation is accurate -- the scroll does not "advance" or "promote" Mr. Church to soke; but it does use the title in conjunction with his name. This is the point where believers and nonbelievers will never reconcile.

Believers will insist that the personal relationship between Mr. Kuniba and Mr. Church was such that the use of "soke" for Mr. Church was a peer-to-peer acceptance/recognition.

Nonbelievers will insist that Kuniba sensei never wrote the scroll because Kuniba sensei said he didn't; but, if he did (and denied), he was only using the title "soke" out of mere courtesy and didn't mean to support Mr. Church as a bonafide soke.

I cannot reconcile Mr. Church's stories about Dai Yoshin Ryu and personally, I think it is fabrication (he would have been 9 at the time, the period was only 3 years, he called both father and son by the same name, he used different names for the family style.... etc.).

Also: later, as an adult, I thought his stories about Kuniba sensei, Hayashi sensei, and the ranks were mostly fabricated ..... until photos of the certificates began to show up from former students (they would take photos of themselves standing next to the certificates on the wall). Since I now had the limited ability to read Japanese, I was able to discern that everything (so far) he has said about his ranks and authorizations from Kuniba sensei and Okuyama sensei -- have proven accurate.

Regards,
Guy Power
... who still remains solidly objective with regard to empirical data.

 

[kamishinkan]

That is the understanding I had as well. We always "believed" the history with a certain amount of "faith". It is a breath of fresh air (or maybe sigh of relief!!!) to have these documents to back up the history we have been told. Thanks again Power sensei!

As far as "Dai-Yoshin" stuff.....I was always under the impression that Church sensei's studies in 1939 was in "Judo/Jujutsu" and the "Dai-Yoshin" name came from his idea that the Jujutsu instructor had trained in Daito and Yoshin Ryu(s). I think that maybe Church sensei may have been the one that used that name at first but to everyone I know in Kamishin, that was never "played up" as far as history. I think the real imbellishment came much later from Mr. Sachronowski by trying to claim "inheritance" from this so-called art. JEEZ!
It kind of reminds me of my first art, I trained with a black belt (also my friends dad) in Eishin Ryu. It was not formal training (me and my friend trained at his house in the back yard, mostly sparring and some kata, years later I recognized the kata Sanchin). For me to try and remember much about that would be a stretch to say the least. I don't think I could really remember without a shadow of doubt his name, rank, etc. He was my friends dad, sir, as I recall and I think he was a 3rd degree?
Maybe it was like that for Church sensei as well. Too bad about the later Sachronowski involvement, It would have just stayed as internal information concerning Church sensei's first training.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo

 

[ghp]

Hello Darrell,

Mr. Church once told me he didn't remember the name of the instructor or the style of jujutsu he studied in 1939. My father (b. 1930) told me that in 1939 he studied "jujitsu" at the YMCA in Columbus, Georgia. I suppose "judo" was often called "jujitsu" then, and it was all the rage ("Mr. Moto" -- Peter Lorre -- was using jujustu moves in 1937).

The "Dai Yoshin Ryu" stuff came up in a 6 June 1971 article about Mr. Church written by the Charleston Courier & News sports reporter. In that article Mr. Church relayed the same story about being bounced around the school yard by a smaller, Asian boy, then followed him home to learn jujutsu -- etc. I was at the dojo that night and remember the photo session. Harold Martin was visiting from either the army or university; he was semi-legendary in the dojo and the older students (I was 17) spoke of him reverently in his absence.

I agree with you in that I never heard Mr. Church claim ranking or "rights" to the "Dai Yoshin Ryu" lineage; that came after his death from another person.

Cheers,
Guy

 

[Don Roley]

I think Don Roley's reading of my translation is accurate -- the scroll does not "advance" or "promote" Mr. Church to soke; but it does use the title in conjunction with his name. This is the point where believers and nonbelievers will never reconcile.

Believers will insist that the personal relationship between Mr. Kuniba and Mr. Church was such that the use of "soke" for Mr. Church was a peer-to-peer acceptance/recognition.

Nonbelievers will insist that Kuniba sensei never wrote the scroll because Kuniba sensei said he didn't; but, if he did (and denied), he was only using the title "soke" out of mere courtesy and didn't mean to support Mr. Church as a bonafide soke.

Well, I don't have a horse in this race, and obviously don't even know all the arguments and facts about the matter.

But even so, based on my long experience in Japan I would say that it would only be common Japanese courtesy to use a title that someone said they had in any type of formal communication. To not use it in that type of situation would be a very large slap across the face. I can't put too much into the simple use of the term by itself in this context.

I am wondering if any of the people that support the opposite belief have lived in Japan and can communicate in Japanese at a level of being able to read a newspaper. Is there?

 

[kamishinkan]

Power sensei,

That is what I had heard also. Obviously, the only proof or disproof of the story in paper clip (I have that one as well) is "laid to rest". Even if he "fluffed" the info for the newspaper, it certainly was not to the extreme that was later claimed by a certain gentleman I don't want to discuss.

Harold helps me out GREATLY with all of this info (the stuff he can remember). He is a WORLD of information to me and the guys! It is great having someone of his experience with me. We get together every week for breakfast and I pick his brain.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo

 

[ghp]

Hello Don,

Your observations, vis-a-vis Japanese (and most other polite people/groups), are correct: be polite and call a soi-disant colonel or professor by his self-assumed title/rank. However, the crux of this story is that Kuniba sensei knew Mr. Church -- and stayed at his house when in the Sagamihara area (for a week on one occasion); he read and borrowed the "Koh Scroll"; then, he actively assisted Mr. Church in reworking the "Tekken Ryu" system into a "Japanese" system called "Kamishinryu". In this case, I do not think "common courtesy" was being displayed by Kuniba sensei as he took an active part in helping Mr. Church codify his system. Kuniba suggested the name "Kamishin" [Godly Heart] as a pun on the "Church" name etymology. Same for Mr. Church's "adopted" Japanese name: he suggested Kanda [God's rice-field] for Church; and for Albert (meaning "bright/noble") he chose Takashi meaning "esteem/noble" [see kanji #5794 in the New Nelson's Dictionary].

There is no doubt that years later, Kuniba sensei denied in writing that he had anything to do with Mr. Church except teach him Shitoryu and Iaido. If that letter expressed Kuniba sensei's true feelings, I am at a loss as to why he attended Mr. Church's memorial enbukai and issued documents recognizing and supporting Mrs. Church as kaicho of Kamishinryu? (I have copies of those documents in both Japanese and English). I believe Mr. Kuniba's letter was localized "damage control" and he was responding to a detractor's letter; perhaps he did not intend his letter of denial to achieve such currency.

Now -- just to throw a bit of objectivity into this stew: I am well aware that Mr. Church embellished some of his stories; I'm also cognizant that many of his assertions have proven true. Therefore, I still have my threshing basket in hand and am prepared to separate the wheat from the chaff. Stories about his inheriting a Korean/Chinese fighting system will remain -- to me -- apocryphical until I get a copy of the Koh Scroll and read it.

Regards,
Guy
[who on occasion -- with difficulty and "Nelson's" -- can almost read a Japanese newspaper) and can at least translate WWII-era books and documents.]

[Edited to change "thrashing" to the correct "threshing"]

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I am so happy this thread remains friendly and does not degenerate into verbal NHB that I have seen so many times in E-Budo!

Thank you Mr. Powers for the insights!

 

[kamishinkan]

I am so happy this thread remains friendly and does not degenerate into verbal NHB that I have seen so many times in E-Budo!quote]

It tries to get heated at times, but the only REAL way to get to the bottom of things is to approach it without all of the political fueding and emotions that go along with it!
As far as the Koh scroll, etc.....I too try to keep myself open BUT I must say the more information that comes out and proves Church sensei's claims the EASIER it is to believe the few things that have not been proven. Take this from someone who stayed with Kamishin Ryu walking in "faith", so to speak, during the times when it appeared that Church sensei was completely lying (if you listen to the opinions of posters on the martial forums). Now with all of the information we have proving Church sensei's claims, as far as I am concerned, the law of averages is beginning to work for us.
Just my take on it. (I never used the smiley before, thought I would try it!)

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo