Kamishin Ryu

K

kenpojujitsu

Guest
I guess I have to aplogize.
it seems that the noted historian, respected swordsman and long time student of Nakamura Sensei - Mr. Guy Power, has in fact verfied that both Albert Church and Ted Petit are the rightful and legitmate Soke of Kamishin Ryu.

This totally changes everything that we have always been taught.
But it is hard to go against the word of someone with the credentials of someone like Mr. Power.

I guess everyone that has ever scoffed at the idea of these American Sokeship councils needs to go back to them and apolgize.

Thank you Guy Power Sensei for clearing all this up.
And I humbly apologize to Soke Church, Soke Petit and the Shihan-Renshi/Pastor Collins.
 
To made an honest mistake and admit it is a sign of a real brave man with pure heart. :)You are a true warrior kenpojujitsu.
 
I have told people, in other posts and in emails that I would apologize if proven wrong.

I know Mr. Power by reputation only. But he is known to be a true scholar of Budo. I was shocked to see his name affiliated with this organization.
But it hs been verified that Power Sensei has in fact stated the legitimacy of these "sokeships". So I kept my word and apologized.

I also have to apologize to Soke Williams of the ISHH for doubting the veracity of his claims. I know he has been taking a beating on the boards all over the place for his statements and claims. But to be in the company of Power Sensei is to be in good company indeed.

I guess that is 2 more issues settled.
 
In the light of this post, I would also like to make sure that in our last postings I did not say anything personally offensive to Kenpojujitsu. If I did I apologize as well. You are certainly a great debater!
 
I was not really offended by anything you said.
I just get mad easily and the Church debates had really ticked me off.
 
My teacher's teacher, Mr. Hobbs, happened to be a student of Mr. Church as well, back then in the 60s or 70s I think. My teacher thinks very highly of Mr. Hobbs, and I also think that Mr. Hobbs has great skills. My teacher is already a skilled and established Wado-ryu and Jujutsu practitioner before he joined Mr. Hobbs's group, so I won't take his opinion lightly.

Mr. Hobbs credited Mr. Church as one of his teachers and martial art influences. So, despite all the bad press Mr. Church has been getting in the E-budo world lately, I am very sure that Mr. Church does have great skills, and some of the controversies and debates about him must have come from some sort of misunderstanding, or maybe (bad) business decisions.

All in all, I am glad the debates are over :) toast to all
icon14.gif
 
Kind of difficult to say.. Mr. Kondo Katsuyuki is said to recognize Don Angier's skills, as well as Mr. Stan Pranin. But to accept that a Gaijin (non Japanese) is able to become a Soke of a Koryu art is rather difficult to digest.

Menkyokaiden or full license is another story, many people has received this license from Japanese masters. People who received full license sometimes went on to create their own arts, which is legit. If a non Japanese received full license and then create his/her own art, then his art would still be considered legit, but this art won't be fully recognized as an ancient (koryu) art. Rather, it will be recognized as a modern derivative, and many Japanese would tell you that it is not to be considered as "truly Japanese art" anymore :)

In Mr. Church's case, he was "recognized" (even this is debatable) as a Soke of an independent art. No Japanese ever claimed "Nihon Kamishin-ryu" before, so no problems there.
 
Actually, nippon Kamishin Ryu is the new name of the old art.
Kim Chi Kooh appears to have inherited a branch of Daito Ryu along with an ancient Chinese art.
Church had always maintained that in order to be recognized as "Soke", the art needed to have a Japanese name. So the name was changed.
According to the scroll, the art dates back to 1125 in China.
 
That depends on who you ask.
Some disagree with Angier sensei's claims (not me).

EDIT: As far as Kamishin Ryu inheriting a branch of Daito Ryu......Incorrect. This was said by the ISHH. This was NEVER claimed by anyone in Kamishin Ryu.
 
kenpojujitsu said:
Actually, nippon Kamishin Ryu is the new name of the old art.
Kim Chi Kooh appears to have inherited a branch of Daito Ryu along with an ancient Chinese art.
Church had always maintained that in order to be recognized as "Soke", the art needed to have a Japanese name. So the name was changed.
According to the scroll, the art dates back to 1125 in China.
Click to expand...

I think that is a very plausible scenario. Mr. Kooh is a master of an ancient chinese art, but he also had some training in Japanese arts, and thus he created a sino-japanese modern art based on all his knowledge.

But I am not sure that Mr. Kooh inherited a branch of Daito-ryu. If he really did, there must be his name written somewhere in the Daito-ryu enrollment books as kept by the Takeda family. Even if he only attend a seminar, his name should be there. So far we had no confirmation whatsoever.

Mr. Pranin of Aiki News has confirmed that one Korean, Mr. Jang in Mok, has received a Shoden Mokuroku in Daito-ryu from Matsuda Hosaku sensei in the early 40s. So the idea of non-Japanese receiving Daito-ryu instructions is possible, as long as we could see the written proof.

Anyway, most Budo historians now accepted that Daito-ryu is a modern (post Meiji) art, it was reconstructed by Takeda Sokaku sensei based on his family art. So, while takeda's family art could have been a Koryu (perhaps based on Asayama Ichiden-ryu), the things that Takeda sensei taught to Uyeshiba, Okuyama, Sagawa, Horikawa et al was not the Koryu version, but rather, a modern, principle-based version which he reconstructed himself.
 
We (Kamishin Ryu) were never told anything like "inheritance of a Daito Ryu lineaged art".....
We were told that the inherited art that was re-named to Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu was a Chinese/Korean art likened to Hapkido (Basically a punch/kick/throwing art). The Jujutsu we now train in was systemitized by Church sensei from his previous training (Daito/Hakko Ryu). This is not inheritance, just instructor added training.
 
Yup, that's what Mr. Hobbs told my sensei as well. It's an old Hapkido-like art on which Mr. Church tag on some Judo and Hakko-ryu (and maybe some bunkai from Motobu-ha Shito-ryu) in it.
 
"Mr. Guy Power, has in fact verfied that both Albert Church and Ted Petit are the rightful and legitmate Soke of Kamishin Ryu.
Click to expand...
NO, NO, NO!!! Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have CLEARLY said to you?

I did NOT verify that Albert Church is the rightful and legitimate soke of Kamishinryu; nor, that Ted Petit is the legitimate soke of Kamishinryu. I translated a document from KUNIBA sensei in which KUNIBA writes, "I designate Albert C. Church, Jr., Kamishinryu Soke, as International Martial Arts Instructor and my representative ...."! I, Guy Power, am verifying that my translation of Kuniba sensei's document is accurate.

Guy Power
 
Power Sensei,

I think Kenpojujitsu was trying to tie your words (twisted as they were) Church Sensei, Petit Sensei and the ISHH. It seems to me to try and bring an overall discredit to the whole thing. I think everyone who has read the posts can see the agenda, Thank you for correcting alot of this information and bringing to light the truth of the Kuniba scroll, kanban, menjo, etc.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo
 
ghp said:
NO, NO, NO!!! Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have CLEARLY said to you?

I did NOT verify that Albert Church is the rightful and legitimate soke of Kamishinryu; nor, that Ted Petit is the legitimate soke of Kamishinryu. I translated a document from KUNIBA sensei in which KUNIBA writes, "I designate Albert C. Church, Jr., Kamishinryu Soke, as International Martial Arts Instructor and my representative ...."! I, Guy Power, am verifying that my translation of Kuniba sensei's document is accurate.

Guy Power
Click to expand...

Hello Powers sensei,

(off topics mode on)

Welcome to MartialTalk!

My sensei's sensei also studied Toyama-ryu, just like you.

Hope you enjoy your stay!

(off topics mode off)

:)
 
ghp said:
NO, NO, NO!!! Why do you continue to misrepresent what I have CLEARLY said to you?

I did NOT verify that Albert Church is the rightful and legitimate soke of Kamishinryu; nor, that Ted Petit is the legitimate soke of Kamishinryu. I translated a document from KUNIBA sensei in which KUNIBA writes, "I designate Albert C. Church, Jr., Kamishinryu Soke, as International Martial Arts Instructor and my representative ...."! I, Guy Power, am verifying that my translation of Kuniba sensei's document is accurate.

Guy Power
Click to expand...

Can someone explain something to me? Has anyone said that Kuniba made Church as an inheritor of Kamishin ryu or examined his claims as such?

Because the way I read the above, that does not seem to be the case.

The above could be explained by the idea that Church created a style, called it Kamishin ryu and Kuniba merely used the title Church gave himself on a semi-official document. It could mean more, but really does not sound much more than Kuniba using a title that Church told him he used.

If Kuniba made Church his inheritor, then the document would read that he designated Church as soke. The title soke is not mentioned as being what Kuniba designates him as and the only thing designated is as a representative of him.

I really can't seem to find a thread that would answer this question in the first three pages and is seems a simple question to answer. So could someone tell me if Church claimed that Kuniba made him a soke?
 
That's a 21 page thread. Can't you just say yes or no? It isn't that much of a request!!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Which style

Previous Thread

Karate and Tai Chi.

Next Thread

Similar threads

Bob Hubbard
  • Sticky
Japanese Sword Arts Faq Version 2.9
Replies
0
Views
18K
Bob Hubbard
Bob Hubbard
RRouuselot
Master Choki Motobu, 'A Real Fighter' By Graham Noble
2
Replies
24
Views
24K
Taiji Rebel
T

Latest Discussions

Back
Top