Kali Impractical!!!!!!!!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Tis true...............Filipino Martial Arts are mostly weapon based. They follow the idea that why be really good with your fists when you can be really good with your sword or weapon (Advantage) AND THEN good with your hands. Better to be good enough to NOT lose your weapon and then be able to do defend yourself than be good enough to fight after he has knocked the sword etc from your hand. :asian:

Yup. Also, the culture the FMA evolved in was and, in large part, still is a blade culture. Blades were needed in many aspects of day-to-day life. They needed blades to get through the jungle if they weren't using a trail. They needed blades to cut their food. Etc.

Also, the Philippines have a very violent history. A lot of fighting against external aggressors and between tribes.

If I had to carry a blade on me every day just to be able to eat, then that, obviously, would be my first choice in a fight and I would, from daily usage, be very comfortable with that blade in my hand.

Mike

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by pesilat
Yup. Also, the culture the FMA evolved in was and, in large part, still is a blade culture. Blades were needed in many aspects of day-to-day life. They needed blades to get through the jungle if they weren't using a trail. They needed blades to cut their food. Etc.

Also, the Philippines have a very violent history. A lot of fighting against external aggressors and between tribes.

If I had to carry a blade on me every day just to be able to eat, then that, obviously, would be my first choice in a fight and I would, from daily usage, be very comfortable with that blade in my hand.

Mike

A guy from the Phillipines in my kenpo class said that they needed blades to defend against baboon attacks, too.
Said hand to hand, unskilled fighter vs. baboon, baboon would
kill ya.

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by Kirk
A guy from the Phillipines in my kenpo class said that they needed blades to defend against baboon attacks, too.
Said hand to hand, unskilled fighter vs. baboon, baboon would
kill ya.

Wouldnt want to go up against a Baboon anyway

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Wouldnt want to go up against a Baboon anyway

He said while cutting your way through jungle brush, there they
are. ... maybe it was oragutangs? But anyways, he said once
they see you, they attack, and they're VERY strong.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Kirk
A guy from the Phillipines in my kenpo class said that they needed blades to defend against baboon attacks, too.
Said hand to hand, unskilled fighter vs. baboon, baboon would
kill ya.

Man, I don't know what province your friend is from, but I've never heard of baboon attacks! Well, I guess I'm just a city boy. By the way, it's 1 "l" and 2 "pp" - Philippines.

Anyways, one of the reasons that Kali is taught weapon first is, at lot of "Kali" today is based on "Eskrima" or at least concepts are based on "Eskrima," which can be defined (sort of), as a slightly more "modern" style developed during Spanish occupation (as oppose to Kali which is in one interpretation a catch all phrase for the pre-colonial arts).

This style was use and developed to fight the Spanish occupation force. It was designed to be effective very quickly, and taught relatively quickly. It can be considered more a "soldier's" art than a "warrior's art." That is where the numbering system tends to come from (from what I understand), as it was found in Spanish fencing, and translates well when teaching large groups to fight (as oppose to father to son kind of thing). Secondly, when training soldiers for battle, it's best to make them as effective as possible, which means weapons. Which means train weapons first. The idea being an semi-skilled person with a sword is more dangerous to the enemy than a semi-skilled person with empty hands. Try doing a raid against a garrison empty hand and see how it goes.

And as for Kali the "warriors" art, as this was used in war, between groups, weapons will also be used. In the Japanese styles, sword styles were primarily used in war. You have armies of sword armed people attacking each other. They didn't use Jiu Jitsu, or Karate first, they used their swords first until they were disarmed. Same thing here, so they train weapons first.

And I'll reiterate, Kali isn't impractical empty hand. I was just pointing out that it shines with a weapon, this makes it even more practical.

P.S. Not to confuse anybody, but "Eskrima" is also used as a catch all term by Visayans for blade or stick oriented FMA, as is Arnis by northerners.


Woop! Yellow belt. Never had a colored belt in my life!

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by Kirk
He said while cutting your way through jungle brush, there they
are. ... maybe it was oragutangs? But anyways, he said once
they see you, they attack, and they're VERY strong.

Yes......they are strong enough to kill you :asian:

 

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
So, if I do not carry a knife I should not know how to use one or how to avoid getting cut real bad. And we all know I never would run into a mad person with a tire iron or base ball bat I should not know how to use a weapon or how to defend against one.

Knowledge is good.

Ignorance is bad.

Just my opinion.

From what I have read, it seems that you have it just about right, Rich. Nothing more needs to be said.

Lamont

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Man, I don't know what province your friend is from, but I've never heard of baboon attacks! Well, I guess I'm just a city boy. By the way, it's 1 "l" and 2 "pp" - Philippines.

Thanks for the correction. I can never remember how to spell it!
But it does bring up the question .. why is it called "FMA"???

At my kenpo school, we informally train in a lot of FMA flow drills,
and do stick and knife work. A lot of disarm practice, and lock
drills too. It's done to enhance our kenpo, and help us learn to
flow a lot quicker. But I'm intrigued by your comment about being
taught relatively quickly. What's a common time frame to be
considered effective in Kali? Is it an art where a lot of technique
is taught early, and you spend all the time thereafter (as much as
one would like I suppose) improving your skills that have been
taught early? The instructors in my school tell me that they feel
that first .. the kenpo weapons "suck" and that Kali is one of
the best weapons systems out there. So incorporating Kenpo's
empty handed combat and multiple attacker's "dominance" with
Kali's weapons dominance works for them. Not trying to start
anything here, that's what they tell me. They're entitled to thier
opinion, right? (I haven't studied long enough to form an opinion)

It's something I have interest in, and am considering cross
training if/when I ever get my b.b. in kenpo.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Kirk
Thanks for the correction. I can never remember how to spell it!
But it does bring up the question .. why is it called "FMA"???

As I understand it, the islands are called the Philippines, the people and cultural elements are Filipino/Filipina. And the language is Pilipino.

This difference arises from several factors. When the Spanish took over the north and central islands, they named the islands after their king, Philip. Which, I believe, they spelled as "Filip." The "Philippines" is an english version of the name (I think).

The ancient native tongue of the region didn't have an "F" sound and it got pronounced as "P."

If memory serves, this is the root of these different spellings.

But I'm intrigued by your comment about being
taught relatively quickly. What's a common time frame to be
considered effective in Kali?

In my experience, someone can gain basic profiency within a few months. But this will vary from person to person and system to system because not all systems are taught the same way -- which leads to your next question.

Is it an art where a lot of technique
is taught early, and you spend all the time thereafter (as much as
one would like I suppose) improving your skills that have been
taught early?

Depends on the system. Some systems do a "flood" of elements and then go back and clean up the details. Others bring out one element at a time and get it relatively polished before bringing out the next element.

But, either way, the FMAs tend to be very "concept" oriented, instead of "technique" oriented. In my experience, they're taught like this (I'm sure there are exceptions among the thousands of FMA systems that I've never seen):

You learn drills to develop flow and coordination. You learn techniques and the principles that make the techniques work. Then you try to perform the techniques within the flow of the drills. This gives you a semi-resisting opponent and helps you develop your material under conditions that approach "live fire." Then you spar and pressure test your material.

The instructors in my school tell me that they feel
that first .. the kenpo weapons "suck" and that Kali is one of
the best weapons systems out there. So incorporating Kenpo's
empty handed combat and multiple attacker's "dominance" with
Kali's weapons dominance works for them. Not trying to start
anything here, that's what they tell me. They're entitled to thier
opinion, right? (I haven't studied long enough to form an opinion)

If I understand correctly, then what you've been told kind of boils down to, "We use Kali weapon training because it's better than Kenpo weapon training, but the Kenpo empty hands are 'better' than Kali empty hands -- or that there are no Kali empty hands?"

If that's what you're being told then I would guess that there are a few possible reasons for this sentiment being put forth.

(a) they may have never delved deep enough into the Kali to have gained any understanding of the empty hand aspect of the Kali.

(b) they may have never seen Kali empty hands at all and may think it doesn't exist

(c) being Kenpoists, they may have had blinders on when it came to the Kali empty hands

(d) they may know better, but not want their students to know better

In my experience, the empty hands of Kali are very similar to those of Kali. They are both very fluid and rapid with striking. They both are very concerned with multiple opponents (though I haven't personally seen this in my very limited exposure to Kenpo, I'll take your word for it). They both tend to "smother" the opponent with strikes, traps, and locks.

Hope that was helpful.

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by pesilat
As I understand it, the islands are called the Philippines, the people and cultural elements are Filipino/Filipina. And the language is Pilipino.

This difference arises from several factors. When the Spanish took over the north and central islands, they named the islands after their king, Philip. Which, I believe, they spelled as "Filip." The "Philippines" is an english version of the name (I think).

The ancient native tongue of the region didn't have an "F" sound and it got pronounced as "P."

If memory serves, this is the root of these different spellings.


Mike

Just to clarify symantics:

The islands are called the "Philippine Islands" or "Philippines"

A person from the region is described in English as "Filipino" or "Filipina." The national language is also called "Filipino" in English. Filipino has no "F" sound, as it is based on Tagalog, a dialect native to the Manila (or Maynila) region spoken by the Tagalog people.

So a person from the region is described in Filipino as "Pilipino" or "Pilipina."

Now, if you come to the USA, there are a lot of Filipinos who like to say "Pilipino" because either A) they have an accent, B) sounds better, C) a political statement against Anglicanization. Some consider C silly, as the term is already European in origin. Since there was no catch all term for the Philippines before European colonialism, there isn't a well known indigenous term around, so Pilipino or Filipino it is.

To confuse things further, Pilipinos came to the USA back in the 20s, 30s and such, mainly to work the fields, as the National Origins act had tried up the influx of Japanese laborers, and the Chinese Exclusionary Act did the same to the Chinese immigrants. An aspect of the Tydings-McDuffie act would also limit Pilipino immigration later. But for these immigrants, they were Ilocano, Cebuano, Tagalog, etc. They didn't call each other Pilipino, instead they use the term "Pinoy" or "Pinay" as a catch all for people from the Philippines.


So basically, Pilipino or Filipino... personal preferance. Same thing in my book, but some of my old militant college friends would insist on Pilipino (note: it is NOT Filippino, Fillipino, or even Philippino). So I would say that's safe. On the other hand a Pilipino friend of mine was applying for a job, and put Pilipino instead of Filipino for his ethnicity. The interviewer insisted that he mispelled it, and said it didn't look to good.

So "FMA" stands for Filipino Martial Arts.

 

[Mormegil]

Back to the question of the practicallity of weapon knowledge. I came to the conclusion that altercations involving weapons would probably be safer handled if you have weapon training.

As such, I posted a poll in the general forum. If you have been in an altercation, was a weapon involved, either in offense or defense?

I'm curious to see how this turns out. Last I checked, it was 2 yes, 0 no. Not quite statistically relevent yet.

 

[Mormegil]

I thought I'd give this old thread an update. I remember there was a general thread on weapon training. This could apply to that one too.

I was just looking over the poll results.

Of people attacked, 13 said it involved a weapon. 7 said it did not.

So from these numbers, it seems a good chance that if you do get attacked a weapon will be involved. I am under the opinion that training to fight with and against weapons at an early stage is a good way to become comfortable with weapons, and as such would increase your chances in an attack or assault, since they are likely to to involve a weapon. This applies to you being armed or unarmed.

I posted a second poll, asking if you were attacked with a weapon, was it bladed or blunt. 8 out of 10 responded with bladed. Due to the same logic as above, I would surmise that Kali training with blades or training blades would increase your chances in such an altercation.

So, no Kali training is definately not impractical, if for the weapon training if nothing else (and I think the empty hand is still pretty useful).