Kali Impractical!!!!!!!!

[Master of Blades]

A TKD friend of mine just went as far as saying that Kali was an impractical art and that learning with Swords was a "Waste of Time"!!!!!!!!!

To this I replied that it is certainly NOT a waste of time. Doing Kali has made me far more aware of my body mechanics and pain threshold then anything else. It is certainly not impractical because if you get attacked with a stick or a pole or whatever then you know that you have a chance of disarming them. And even if you dont there is always the unarmed part of Kali. Learning with Blades is certainly not a waste of time! I mean what if you get "ambushed" and need to pick up a pole to even the score. I would rather know how to use it then just swing it around. Also your reactions become a lot faster when you have a Blade coming it you rather then a fist!

Was I wrong!!!!

 

[pesilat]

I originally posted this in another thread here "Weapons Training", but it'll work here, too.

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Most of what I'm about to say has already been said in this thread, I think. But oh well ... here's my 2 cents.

I feel that weapons training is useful for several reasons:
1) It can help your empty hands development ... coordination is coordination
2) The principles applied with, for instance, a bo are just as applicable with a pool cue. The principles applied with a stick are just as applicable with a cane. The principles applied with a palm stick are just as applicable with a cell phone.
3) Weapons are (for most people) fun so can be a nice change of pace to keep people interested ... and if you tie the training back to 1 & 2, then it's completely practical as well.

Training with weapons can ingrain the principles of weapon usage into your body. Then, no matter what you pick up, it can be used as a weapon.

Personally, I think one of the biggest advantages to weapons is that, unlike my body, they don't bleed or feel pain. So I'll use any inanimate object I can get my hands on if it'll help prevent me from bleeding or feeling pain.

The world is chock full of weapons. Training with weapons helps you see this and helps you understand how to use various items.

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So, no, I don't consider Kali to be impractical at all.

I'd guess that your friend is just parrotting what his/her instructor has said (though your friend may totally believe it, too ... but he/she has probably never studied weapons at all and probably has no real idea about them).

Mike

 

[Kirk]

You'd certainly know more about Kali than I, but I thought it was
an empty handed art as well, you just learn weapons first?

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by Kirk
You'd certainly know more about Kali than I, but I thought it was
an empty handed art as well, you just learn weapons first?

Thats right.......But I just couldnt believe he actually said something like that! I dont rate TKD as a very effective art but I would never say that to him!

Also training with heavy weapons will increase your arm strength and if you can move pretty fast with a heavy sword or Boken.....I would hate to see how fast you move with your hands! :asian:

 

[arnisandyz]

Have you sparred with him? I use to belong to a local TKD club and one way to gain respect for your art from these types of people is to beat them at there own game (sparring). It is hard to argue FMAs "ineffectiveness" when they experience it firsthand. And you stand alot to gain as well, fight as many different people from different styles as possible.

If he is your friend, convince him that FMA would be a good suppliment to his TKD. In addition to adding a good inside game and practical weapon usage, he will gain alot by the footwork and zoning principles which will help him in TKD. If he is not your friend, let him believe what he wants and keep Kali as your own secret Jewel.

Of course any art can be effective or ineffective depending on the individual practitioner. I wouldn't expect anyone with a couple weeks training in FMA to take on a TKD practitioner of 10+ years (without a weapon).

 

[Brother John]

Short to medium length blunt/swung weapons are the most commonly used weapons in a streetfight.
Coming in a close second is knives.
My wife is a surgical coder for a trauma doctor at an inner-city emergency room... she reads all of the reports having to do with the results of violence in the area (gangs are thick round that area too). The number of stick and or knife attacks/wounds will make a strict believer out of your 'friend'.
Ask your Tae Kwan Do friend how 'logical' or 'practical' it is to kick someone in the head. To me kicking to the head is about as logical as punching to the foot.
Your Brother
John
:soapbox:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
A TKD friend of mine just went as far as saying that Kali was an impractical art and that learning with Swords was a "Waste of Time"!!!!!!!!!

To this I replied that it is certainly NOT a waste of time. Doing Kali has made me far more aware of my body mechanics and pain threshold then anything else. It is certainly not impractical because if you get attacked with a stick or a pole or whatever then you know that you have a chance of disarming them. And even if you dont there is always the unarmed part of Kali. Learning with Blades is certainly not a waste of time! I mean what if you get "ambushed" and need to pick up a pole to even the score. I would rather know how to use it then just swing it around. Also your reactions become a lot faster when you have a Blade coming it you rather then a fist!

Was I wrong!!!!

Igorance is a wonderful thing.... how could you be wrong if you are studying Kali and your friend is studying TKD. I most certinly would not challenge your friend to a fight and stand out at kicking range to prove to him my Kali was superior to his TKD! Take him to a phone booth for the fight, because Kali force you to consider long, medium and short ranges, does it not? I have not meet too many TKD guys who handle short range fighting very well. BTW, did you learn how to use knees, forearms and elbows? Ask your TKD friend if he knows how to blend these anatomical tools into a fight situation. Using a TRAINING KNIFE - check out his defenses are the three ranges. Ignorance is a wonderful thing, but becareful that it does not get you killed.

 

[Master of Blades]

LOL Sparred and beaten him about 6 times.......Still doesnt get the idea :shrug:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
LOL Sparred and beaten him about 6 times.......Still doesnt get the idea :shrug:

Spar him with an empty water bottle and explain that you learned the principles of using it from your Kali training with sticks and knives. A plastic water bottle should be pretty apparently a "practical" and available weapon.

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

On the impractical aspect of weapon or specifically knife training... I happen to know quite a few Kali practitioners who carry small (and big) knives. Locking folders like Spydercos etc.

So for this type of person, the weapon training isn't impractical at all.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Mormegil
On the impractical aspect of weapon or specifically knife training... I happen to know quite a few Kali practitioners who carry small (and big) knives. Locking folders like Spydercos etc.

So for this type of person, the weapon training isn't impractical at all.

So, if I do not carry a knife I should not know how to use one or how to avoid getting cut real bad. And we all know I never would run into a mad person with a tire iron or base ball bat I should not know how to use a weapon or how to defend against one.

Knowledge is good.

Ignorance is bad.

Just my opinion.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
So, if I do not carry a knife I should not know how to use one or how to avoid getting cut real bad. And we all know I never would run into a mad person with a tire iron or base ball bat I should not know how to use a weapon or how to defend against one.


Just my opinion.

No actually. I didn't say that. This is merely more evidence that Kali is practical. I'm saying it's especially even more practical for somebody who carries, as a weapon is available and can be used if necessary.

 

[pesilat]

Also, I don't know the exact numbers, but statistically (at least here in the States), most assaults involve a weapon of some sort or another.

By learning to use weapons, we also learn their strengths and weaknesses which helps prepare us to defend against them.

So, statistically, if I get attacked, it will probably be with a weapon. Logically, I want to be as prepared as possible to defend myself. That means that I need to understand weapons.

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by pesilat
Also, I don't know the exact numbers, but statistically (at least here in the States), most assaults involve a weapon of some sort or another.


Mike

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a skewed statistic, since these are probably reported assaults. A weapon involved would make it escalate probably to the point of a police report. There are probably a number of drunken bar room brawls that go unreported.

This isn't an argument to impracticallity of Kali, I just thought of this as I read your post, and wanted to point it out.

There are three kinds of lies in worsening order: White lies, bald faced lies, and statistics (kidding of course, I'm a scientist)

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I wouldn't be surprised if this is a skewed statistic, since these are probably reported assaults. A weapon involved would make it escalate probably to the point of a police report. There are probably a number of drunken bar room brawls that go unreported.

This isn't an argument to impracticallity of Kali, I just thought of this as I read your post, and wanted to point it out.

There are three kinds of lies in worsening order: White lies, bald faced lies, and statistics (kidding of course, I'm a scientist)

LOL. Actually, I agree completely.

Personally, I hate statistics. In fact, I'm not even sure why I mentinoed them.

What I hate about statistics is that they can be skewed so dramatically. It's possible to put together statistics to support or refute any point of view. Unless we know the source of the statistical data and the precise details of its gathering, the statistic is completely useless to us. It's just hearsay.

But it does look good on paper

Very valid point about the "reported" assaults. But, like you said, not an argument against Kali at all. From my personal experience, I've been assaulted (he didn't attack, fortunately) with a knife. And I've had to disarm someone. They weren't trying to attack anyone, but they were upset and holding a piece of metal so I decided to remove the potential weapon "just in case." When I asked him to put it down, he ignored me. When I told him to put it down, he stepped into a corner to try to keep me from getting to it. I pinned his near hand to his body, reached around his body, caught his far hand (that was holding the metal rod), and disarmed him by levering the rod against the back of his leg.

So, statistics aside, I've personally been in situations where my knowledge of weapons was potentially or directly useful.

There, I like that better. Phooie on statistics!

Mike

 

[Zepp]

Master of Blades,

I hope this dope isn't a very good friend of yours- he seems very proud of his ignorance.

I primarily study TKD, but I have to say that the Kali training I have had has done nothing but widen my options in TKD sparring and in self-defense. Simple common sense tells you that learning a weapon-based art is practical, simply because you at least learn how to defend yourself against a weapon when you are unarmed.

I like pesilat's empty water bottle suggestion. Though if he starts talking smack, maybe you should use a full one.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Zepp
Master of Blades,

I hope this dope isn't a very good friend of yours- he seems very proud of his ignorance.

I primarily study TKD, but I have to say that the Kali training I have had has done nothing but widen my options in TKD sparring and in self-defense. Simple common sense tells you that learning a weapon-based art is practical, simply because you at least learn how to defend yourself against a weapon when you are unarmed.

I like pesilat's empty water bottle suggestion. Though if he starts talking smack, maybe you should use a full one.

Yup. And use a "sports" bottle with the pop-up top. That way you can spray it in his face before you attack :lol:

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Mormegil
No actually. I didn't say that. This is merely more evidence that Kali is practical. I'm saying it's especially even more practical for somebody who carries, as a weapon is available and can be used if necessary.

I apologize, yet I have to ask, why does FMA have to have a weapon to be effective or to be practical? Do they not have empty hand techniques that would not work against empty hands?

Nothing personal, verbally sparring about perceptions.

Looking for your response.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I apologize, yet I have to ask, why does FMA have to have a weapon to be effective or to be practical? Do they not have empty hand techniques that would not work against empty hands?

Nothing personal, verbally sparring about perceptions.

Looking for your response.

LOL. FMA doesn't have to have a weapon to be effective or practical.

But the FMA, at least as I've learned it, is weapon-based. It starts with the weapons and the empty hands are derived from the weapons.

It's very concept/principal oriented. I can use the same motions with my empty hands as I do with a knife or with a stick. The effect of the weapon (my hands are weapons, too) will vary, but the motions and, more importantly, the principles of movement are the same. This means that, as the practitioner develops, there is no shift in mindset. Only a shift in range.

The empty hands in the FMA are very effective and robust. Every bit equal to any other empty hand system I've ever seen. But everything in the FMA ties directly back to the weapons.

Again, this is true of the FMA I've been exposed to. There may be FMA systems out there that this isn't true of. I don't know. There are a lot of FMA systems out there and I've only been exposed to a handful of them.

Mike

 

[Master of Blades]

Tis true...............Filipino Martial Arts are mostly weapon based. They follow the idea that why be really good with your fists when you can be really good with your sword or weapon (Advantage) AND THEN good with your hands. Better to be good enough to NOT lose your weapon and then be able to do defend yourself than be good enough to fight after he has knocked the sword etc from your hand. :asian: