Just Another Newby with a Question

[DKohler]

Hello, I’m new to this forum. Kacey and a few others here know me but for those I’ve not had a chance to meet, I’m with the Yom Chi Taekwon-Do Association. We practice Chang-Hon Taekwon-Do and we were formerly affiliated with the ITF.

I’ve been posting on another BBS and recently became curious as to how the folks there received their Martial Arts instruction. I subscribe to the traditional philosophy of the “Student-Instructor” relationship. Where the student chooses one person to be their Instructor (Sahbum) and receives instruction from them regularly. From my discussions on the other board, I was somewhat surprised that this not necessarily the norm anymore. Have the internet, books, and magazines begun to replace the traditional “Student-Instructor” relationship in Martial Arts training?

How do those of you here receive your instruction? Do you have one individual that you consider your Instructor and receive instruction from them regularly, have many teachers but no one you call your Instructor, learn from who you can when you can and choose what you feel is relevant, train informally with your peers, learn from books and train yourself, or do you get your MA instruction in some other way?

Just curious…

 

[Kacey]

Hello, I’m new to this forum. Kacey and a few others here know me but for those I’ve not had a chance to meet, I’m with the Yom Chi Taekwon-Do Association. We practice Chang-Hon Taekwon-Do and we were formerly affiliated with the ITF.

Hi, Mr. Kohler, and welcome to Martial Talk! :wavey: For those who've read posts by myself and DArnold, many of you know that DArnold (Mr. Doug Arnold) is my Sahbum - and Mr. Kohler's Sahbum as well.

I’ve been posting on another BBS and recently became curious as to how the folks there received their Martial Arts instruction. I subscribe to the traditional philosophy of the “Student-Instructor” relationship. Where the student chooses one person to be their Instructor (Sahbum) and receives instruction from them regularly. From my discussions on the other board, I was somewhat surprised that this not necessarily the norm anymore. Have the internet, books, and magazines begun to replace the traditional “Student-Instructor” relationship in Martial Arts training?

There've been quite a few discussions on the board about the proper use of books and videos - the general consensus seems to be that books and videos are great adjuncts to training, but cannot replace the attention of an instructor - although there's been some lively discussions on both sides, especially from people who want to study an art that's not taught directly in their area. Some of the more recent discussions occurred here, here, and here.

How do those of you here receive your instruction? Do you have one individual that you consider your Instructor and receive instruction from them regularly, have many teachers but no one you call your Instructor, learn from who you can when you can and choose what you feel is relevant, train informally with your peers, learn from books and train yourself, or do you get your MA instruction in some other way?

Just curious…

For myself, I can't imagine learning solely from books, videos, and/or DVDs, without the feedback of an instructor. Media sources make great training aids, for individual practice and research, but there are too many times that I've practiced something wrong and thought it was right - and only when my Sahbum or another knowledgable person pointed out my errors did I realize what I was doing wrong.

I have one Sahbum, although I am always happy to receive feedback from anyone of any rank - some of the best feedback I have gotten has come from my students, who see details at a basic level that others may miss, because they may not know the movements, and therefore watch timing and stances carefully. Currently, while I'm not in graduate school, I work out with my Sahbum once a week, teach 2 times a week, and work out on my own several other days a week - more often if my schedule allows.

I also attend seminars whenever I can - both for the additional instruction, and because different people teach using different methods, give different explanations, emphasize different details, and so on, which helps to improve my understanding of TKD.

I do use DVDs and books (along with annoyingly accurate videos of my own performance which will never see the light of day, much less youtube) when I train on my own, but for me, those will never take the place of my Sahbum as a primary source of instruction, or those around me for additional instruction. I really think that continued development requires feedback from others who study the same art, or the fine details get lost.

What do other people think?

 

[Miles]

Welcome to Martial Talk!

I have had several instructors under whom I've started over again as a white belt. I am still fortunate to be in contact with my instructors though we don't get to see each other as often as when I was a newbie.

As far as learning from videos/dvds-I think it is easier to do when you have a strong base in a given art, but like Kacey said, you really need to get the feedback of an experienced instructor for best results.

Miles

 

[Bret Hinds]

A big Hello to you! I guess I am old schooled, I have B.B. in three different arts, but I have a sensai, sabum nim and a instructor. I have read many books and watched many of tapes DVD's and what nots. But to learn from a real in the flesh in your face teacher is the way to go! I also study the Bata, and other western arts. You can not learn the western arts like the eastern arts because a lot of the masters are dead or they did not write anything down. They also showed there skills only to there family or kin and did not pass the info on. So there is a great many men and women trying to relearn these forgotten arts by studing from each other. There are a few books out now on a few of the western arts, the last one I bought was the "WALKING STICK"method of self defence, that was transcribed by mr. Kirk Lawson. He did a super job of it! So you can learn from books and such but a real sabum nim is the best way I know. All the best in the arts to you!

 

[Ninjamom]

Hello, DKohler!

Welcome to MT, and please don't forget to introduce yourself in the 'Meet-n-Greet' section.

First, if you are in the same school as Kacey, then you are in good hands, and have access to a lot of info and great advce right there (please note the several large yellow ninja-death-stars to the far right of Kacey's name in her posts - this says something about the reputation she enjoys here on this forum!)

Next, she summed it all up pretty well, as far as the consensus: Teacher. YES. MUST.

I will just offer one twist on the topic, though. While it is a MUST to have an instructor in order to establish a basis in Martial Arts, there IS a big difference between the Eastern and the Western cultural models of the student-teacher relationship. This shows up in the amount and ability of students to question and/or 'stray' from their instructor's teaching, the length of time involved, and the freedom students enjoy to have (or not have) more than one Instructor or learn from more than one style at the same time.

Both approaches (the 'Eastern' and the 'Western' concepts of the teacher-student relationship) have their strengths and weaknesses. The Eastern method tends to develop true relationship and allows the student to develop most closely into exactly what the Instructor is teaching. At its best, the Eastern approach seems to be based more on the idea of 'discipleship', if I may use that word. At its worst, though, it corrodes a student's ability to disagree or branch out into new areas and approaches, and limits the student to the level of instruction (if the Instructor is of the type to hold back certain knowledge). At its best, the Western method encourages, expects, and even demands innovation and expansion - a great teacher will expect the student to advance to his/her level, and eventually beyond it. At its worst, the Western approach ends up as no more than a commodity (I am now paying for a service, and there is no more relationship there than that).

If you can find a teacher from whom you enjoy learning, with whom you can build a relationship, who will allow you the luxury of innovation and expansion, and who will expect you to exceed his/her abilities, then in my opinion, you have succeeded in finding the best of both worlds.

 

[exile]

Excellent post, Ninjamom!

Greetings, DK, and welcome to Martial Talk. I train with a single instructor, a man with a very deep and broad knowledge of TKD who is perfectly happy to explain exactly why and how one performs a certain technique, how it might be changed or adapted, and so on; there is absolutely no sense of `do it this way because I'm telling you it's the best way (and I'm telling you that because that's what I was told when I was learning it)', that sort of thing. He represents the best aspect of what Ninajom identifies as the `Western' expectation of the student/teacher relationship. As Kacey and others have noted, there is considerable value in books and DVDs on the MAs, but you can no more learn an MA from those sources than you can learn any other set of physical skills and abilities from such media; imagine trying to learn skiing or swimming from a book. I think most people on this board recognize that facts about individual anatomy, biomechanics and especially learning styles rules out the kind of `one size fits all' presentation of technical content that a book or other instructional tool inevitably possesses.

There is virtue in such media: they allow you to explore small wrinkles and refinements in aspect of your practice that you already have a basic understanding of. Increasing the information you take in is almost always good, but your core knowledge has to be secured by personal instruction, I believe. The bottom line is, someone has to be there, showing you, or you can't be confident that you know what you're supposed to do. If you really want to master your craft, there's no other way, I don't think.

 

[tshadowchaser]

As far as TKD goes I had one instructor at any give time that I recieved instruction from.
In or=ther arts I had one head instructor but might be given instruction from anyone in class that had the information I required

 

[Marginal]

Hello, I’m new to this forum. Kacey and a few others here know me but for those I’ve not had a chance to meet, I’m with the Yom Chi Taekwon-Do Association. We practice Chang-Hon Taekwon-Do and we were formerly affiliated with the ITF.

I’ve been posting on another BBS and recently became curious as to how the folks there received their Martial Arts instruction. I subscribe to the traditional philosophy of the “Student-Instructor” relationship. Where the student chooses one person to be their Instructor (Sahbum) and receives instruction from them regularly. From my discussions on the other board, I was somewhat surprised that this not necessarily the norm anymore. Have the internet, books, and magazines begun to replace the traditional “Student-Instructor” relationship in Martial Arts training?

I'd say not so much books and magazines. (Though I do tend to read up on grappling etc just so I'm not totally in the dark.) In general, I think that the MMA movement has diminished the importance of one teacher, one student. Since up until recently, there weren't teachers super well versed in all fields, folks interested in being well-rounded had to move around. Even now there are still specialists if given areas within the MMA field etc. The loyalty to a single art aspect is really is an odd evolution of the arts if you think about it since most of founders of arts like Shotokan, Judo, TKD etc all studied a variety of arts themselves.

 

[DKohler]

Thank you all for your replies. I’m new here, but not to TKD. I’m a 6th Dan with my own students and have kicked around the block a time or two. Many responses have been very gracious, but I’m not looking for advice on how to train. I’m more interested in how each of you has chosen to receive your own instruction.

My curiosity on this subject is about how the search for knowledge within the Martial Arts community has changed since the advent of the internet and the greater availability and use of information in today’s society. On the other Bulletin Board, almost one-half (48%) of those who responded to this same question indicated that they did not have any one person that they called their Instructor. This statistic (although a very limited number) surprised me. I assumed this percentage would be much, much lower. My whole TKD experience (over 20 years now) has taken more of the “Eastern” approach to training. While I enjoy gaining knowledge from many sources, my Instructor (Sahbum) is the one who I look toward to shape my overall Martial Art base. He has taken the responsibility to mold and train me, and I know that if something is a miss he will correct me. As Ninjamom suggested, the “Student-Instructor” relationship in the Eastern sense could be described more as a “Mentor – Disciple” relationship that extends beyond just kicking and punching inside the gym into ones personal development outside of the dojang as well.

My initial question relates to how many are involved with traditional training methods versus those who have chosen a more “freestyle” approach, and which overall direction the Martial Arts community seems to be heading currently.

Additional thoughts?

 

[Kacey]

I've already answered - but have you considered posting this in General Martial Arts Talk? You'll get a bigger audience and a wider range of responses.

 

[DKohler]

Thanks for the input. I posted a similar thread on the Meet'n'Greet. I'm still interested in the Taekwon-do Community's outlook.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm of the belief that DVD, seminars, & other such short-term training aids are wonderful but they don't (rather CAN'T) take the place of the student-instructor relationship. One needs to have an objective eye that critically looks at the way a student is progressing.

I look at it this way, if we were talking about a boxer who's only training experience was by watching dvd's, the proof would be VERY obvious. And every knowledgeable boxing fan/trainer/fighter would be able to talk in great detail about what this fighter would be lacking....If they were still standing very long after the opening bell. Behind every great boxer is a great trainer (or trainers).

In Taekwondo, it's the same thing. Let's talk about poomsae/tul for a moment. If someone decides they want to learn Chung Mu or Tae Geuk Pal Jang from a dvd, but they have nothing but the mirror to critical examine their form, it won't be an accurate demonstration of the form. At best, it will be a stiff, robotic copy of the movements, with no heart or real understanding of the form. At worst, there will be no power, lousy stances & no understanding of what the techniques that one is demonstrating.

 

[Ninjamom]

Additional thoughts?

Wow! I wish I had known all that about you BEFORE I posted - now I feel silly giving someone with three times my experience in MA any kind of advice at all

Other additional thoughts? I find that I must study in a traditional setting with an Instructor, in order to learn the physical techniques correctly. I enjoy learning and I deeply respect my KJN. In addition, though, I have enough of an academic background that I can't 'just' attend class. I find that I learn best by the 'full emersion' method, and I have been studying everything from Korean history to weapons/tactics development to general nutrition/supplements to exercise science. I have started lifting weights and drinking more fluids, as well as learning some basic conversational Korean. (God bless the Internet!)

None of this will necessarily make me a better Taekwondista, but it has all helped me personally, and has helped make me a better TKD teacher.

 

[matt.m]

Welcome.

I am under the firm belief that you have to learn from an instructor through regular class work. I look at poomsea videos and books as a reference only.

You have to learn from a qualified instructor, period. You won't get the fine tuning of proper technique from a video or book. For example, without learning from a human instructor in a live setting you will never ever learn "Hip dropping" when doing a reverse punch properly.