jigsaw poker with wing chun

[Cephalopod]

Hi again,

For sure, when you apply the techniques with another person in the very close arena of wing chun tension and timing all come in, and they are crucially important.

... Its just my view but I would say tension and timing are all about application (and fair do, without application wing chun is useless so I fully acknowledge these are important principles) but before we even get to the application, I would say there are base principles at play... like if you see a guy doing shadow boxing, or shadow muay thai or shadow wing chun, you can recognise the style from the principles which separates that fighting system from others.

Your point on structures is great, because across lineages, structures are generally similar and great reference points in a different lineage's forms, its what movements surround the structure, I find interesting... because in the mainland forms which we never see, and are never talked about, the movements surrounding a structure hint at the applications which follow that structure.... and just occasionally a practitioner will forget they are doing the public form and a couple of clues about their wider applications of a structure will slip in to their form.

... that said its why Ip Man's forms are so popular, they are effectively "choose your own application" forms. (again my view, and from what I have been taught, so feel free to disagree here).

Edit: read what I wrote, and it made no sense... this is a better version (honest)
.

Hi Snark!

I completely agree that the principles of structure are the most definitive. They kinda form the base of the pyramid, without which nothing else can function.

Now I should clarify that I am abusing the word 'structure' to include all the movements of the body and limbs, or at least instantaneous snapshots thereof.

And yet when I roll with practitioners from other lineages, the differences that I usually feel between us are those of tension and timing. However...(caveat)...differences in tension, for example, are often necessitated by differences in structure. For example, the positioning of his elbow in bong sao may require him to flex his shoulder unduly to ward off a sudden attack.

I do like your point about how you can sometimes pick up on some subtle clues that the dude practicing the form might not have intended to display. An example of this might be little vibrations caused by flexion of muscles.

So yeah, you can tell a great deal about a chunner's principles by watching his forms but I would still want to touch hands with him before I draw any conclusions about the efficacy of his style. Helps to reduce my diet of humble pie.

 

[Poppity]

Hi Snark!

I completely agree that the principles of structure are the most definitive. They kinda form the base of the pyramid, without which nothing else can function.

Now I should clarify that I am abusing the word 'structure' to include all the movements of the body and limbs, or at least instantaneous snapshots thereof.

And yet when I roll with practitioners from other lineages, the differences that I usually feel between us are those of tension and timing. However...(caveat)...differences in tension, for example, are often necessitated by differences in structure. For example, the positioning of his elbow in bong sao may require him to flex his shoulder unduly to ward off a sudden attack.

I do like your point about how you can sometimes pick up on some subtle clues that the dude practicing the form might not have intended to display. An example of this might be little vibrations caused by flexion of muscles.

So yeah, you can tell a great deal about a chunner's principles by watching his forms but I would still want to touch hands with him before I draw any conclusions about the efficacy of his style. Helps to reduce my diet of humble pie.

I happily concede... forms won't tell you everything and the real detail and skill of a practitioner will only become apparent from touching hands or sparring.

I am (just to stick in my own prejudices) a little wary about Chi Sau on its own though, as although again it is a very important aspect, it seems to have become almost a separate beast to the wing chun menagerie as opposed to just a transitionary stage during interaction.

 

[wckf92]

because in the mainland forms which we never see, and are never talked about, the movements surrounding a structure hint at the applications which follow that structure.... and just occasionally a practitioner will forget they are doing the public form and a couple of clues about their wider applications of a structure will slip in to their form.

@Snark is this public vs private form stuff still in use today on the mainland? Why do they do that?

 

[Poppity]

I don't know... it's a secret and I haven't been told.

maybe its because knowledge is only valuable to the majority when its held by the minority....

but what do I know (I can't find a shrugging emoticon so "shrugging emoticon goes here")

 

[Cephalopod]

I happily concede... forms won't tell you everything and the real detail and skill of a practitioner will only become apparent from touching hands or sparring.

I am (just to stick in my own prejudices) a little wary about Chi Sau on its own though, as although again it is a very important aspect, it seems to have become almost a separate beast to the wing chun menagerie as opposed to just a transitionary stage during interaction.

Chisao, as I see it, is a lousy quantitative measure of ones fighting ability. It is however an excellent qualitative test of ones skill.

(Here, i'm referring to the sort of chisao that happens between practitioners from 2 different clubs which invariably heats up to a degree and involves footwork, separation and re-bridging, the occasional random strikes from add angles etc.)

As I get older, I find myself a little less preoccupied with the former. I can spend a lot of energy trying to work out whether I, or my opponent, would survive the fictitious 'stairwell encounter' but the fact remains that there are many, many variables in survival combat only some of which have anything to do with martial art skill.

The latter, on the other hand, I find endlessly intriguing. If my opponent finds a way to out position, unbalance, or overwhelm me...now that gives me something to work on, a pathway to improvement.

Now of course, I never want to lose track of the fact that WC is a fighting art, not some arcane dance. Everything within needs to be considered in terms of harsh reality and tested accordingly. But for me, I have found over the years that focusing more on the latter has actually developed my ability quite satisfactorily in the former. Without all that fetishizing violence stuff.

I realize this might not actually address the points on your post, but you gave me an opening to launch my little tirade on the value of chisao. So...hey, thanks!