Looking for a bit of help with some Japanese terms.ShihanDai ShihanSo ShihanI see them on sites, & I know they are titles, but I don't know their English equivelents. Thanks!
Japanese terms
- Thread starter IcemanSK
- Start date
Context matters an awful lot with Japanese, Iceman. In what circumstances are you seeing these terms? For example, a rough translation of "Shihan Dai" is "Great Master/Teacher" but without context that could be really off track 
.
Maybe this will be off help to point you in the direction you seek:
http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss9.html
.Maybe this will be off help to point you in the direction you seek:
http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss9.html
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
Thanks Sukerin. The context of these were both MA related. Sho Shihan was used to denote the founder of a style, who is now deceased, that a friend trains in. Dai Shihan was used on another board in reference to that persons instructor. (One person supposed the "Dai Shihan" was 9th Dan.)It's nice to know everyone has these odd things. Not just the us KMA folks.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Shihan-ke: Originally it was a kind of "master" title. This title was given by the imperial dynasty and/or shogunat to family heads who appreciated and saved traditional arts or sciences. - from Takamatsu Toshitsugu: the last shinobi by Wolfgang Ettig
I have heard that Shihan translates to something like "house of knowledge" and a shihan in any tradition is to be considered a teacher of teachers.
I have heard that Shihan translates to something like "house of knowledge" and a shihan in any tradition is to be considered a teacher of teachers.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
What about So Shihan & Dai Shihan? How do they distinguish from just shihan?
Well, Shihan means, essentially, "teacher" or "expert example". Dai means "large" or "great". I am wondering if So is a contraction of Sho? If so (no pun intented) that would make Shihan So mean something like "Prime Teacher".
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
As Sukerkin said, context here is everything. Some systems will use these terms, but they are honestly fairly specific (and therefore not ones that you will commonly encounter outside of the systems that use them), other than Shihan (and even then it's not universal, or universally used the same way....).
In basic terms, Shihan (師範 simply means "teacher", or more literally "model master". The prefix Dai (大 refers to "big", which typically would mean that the person is the highest placed (if not ranked) of the Shihan in a system. Without seeing the kanji you mean by "So/Sho Shihan", it could mean a number of things (depending on the group that uses it as well....), ranging from Sho (初, which means "first", and could refer to either the "first" amongst the Shihan, or the first (initial) entry rank in a Shihan grouping in a certain system.
Add to this you have organisations such as the Kage Ryu who only have one Shihan, the rest are evenly ranked simply as "members", or the Genbukan, who have three separate distinctions for different levels of Shihan, none of which are the ones mentioned here.
With regard to Himura's post, that honestly sounds rather romanticised and idealised. Shihan is simply a teacher, often a master level one, but a teacher nonetheless. No combination of characters actually make reference to knowledge, or houses, or anything similar (with "house" being found in the term "ke"... but we'll get to that). As far as the term Shihanke being given by the Shogunate to family heads who preserved traditional arts? There's simply far too many issues with that idea for it to be historically feasible (different Emperors, Taiko, and Shogun having very different ideas about what should or shouldn't need preservation, and what should be rewarded, let alone how it would be done), and many of these "family heads" who preserved such things, and use the titles, most likely living their entire lives with no contact with either an Emperor or Shogun whatsoever, instead having contact with their Daimyo if anything.
When it comes to the term "Shihanke", the last character, "ke" (家 actually refers to "family", or "house", in other words, the "instructors house", meaning the grouping, or line passed down, of the instructors. A number of Ryu-ha, such as the Kashima Shinryu, maintain both Soke and Shihanke lines, with the Soke line being the hereditary line of "ownership" of the Ryu, and the Shihanke line being the line of head instructors who have passed on the teachings of the art.
Well, we did say it gets complicated!
In basic terms, Shihan (師範
simply means "teacher", or more literally "model master". The prefix Dai (大 refers to "big", which typically would mean that the person is the highest placed (if not ranked) of the Shihan in a system. Without seeing the kanji you mean by "So/Sho Shihan", it could mean a number of things (depending on the group that uses it as well....), ranging from Sho (初, which means "first", and could refer to either the "first" amongst the Shihan, or the first (initial) entry rank in a Shihan grouping in a certain system.Add to this you have organisations such as the Kage Ryu who only have one Shihan, the rest are evenly ranked simply as "members", or the Genbukan, who have three separate distinctions for different levels of Shihan, none of which are the ones mentioned here.
With regard to Himura's post, that honestly sounds rather romanticised and idealised. Shihan is simply a teacher, often a master level one, but a teacher nonetheless. No combination of characters actually make reference to knowledge, or houses, or anything similar (with "house" being found in the term "ke"... but we'll get to that). As far as the term Shihanke being given by the Shogunate to family heads who preserved traditional arts? There's simply far too many issues with that idea for it to be historically feasible (different Emperors, Taiko, and Shogun having very different ideas about what should or shouldn't need preservation, and what should be rewarded, let alone how it would be done), and many of these "family heads" who preserved such things, and use the titles, most likely living their entire lives with no contact with either an Emperor or Shogun whatsoever, instead having contact with their Daimyo if anything.
When it comes to the term "Shihanke", the last character, "ke" (家
actually refers to "family", or "house", in other words, the "instructors house", meaning the grouping, or line passed down, of the instructors. A number of Ryu-ha, such as the Kashima Shinryu, maintain both Soke and Shihanke lines, with the Soke line being the hereditary line of "ownership" of the Ryu, and the Shihanke line being the line of head instructors who have passed on the teachings of the art. Well, we did say it gets complicated!
Yes, Shihan has an implication of a master. Dai implies that one is a grandmaster.
I think - as an aside - that these terms are often abused and I feel there are some upon whom they are conferred by others who have not quite the apprehension of the loftiness of the title. Shihan or Master is not a thing to be handed out as frequently as it is let alone Dai-Shihan, which should almost be a one-in-a-lifetime encounter.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
I didn't think the explanation I gave was the best there was it was just the only one for which I had a source. It seems there would be problems with understanding as my source is an English translation of a German book with reference to a Japanese term.
So is there a distinction between refering to a person as Sensei as opposed to Shihan (or renshi or hanshi for that matter)?
So is there a distinction between refering to a person as Sensei as opposed to Shihan (or renshi or hanshi for that matter)?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Again, it depends on the context, the organisation, system, Ryu etc. Kage Ryu only have one Shihan, and the rest are kaiin (members of the Ryu). The Genbukan have three levels of "Shihan"; Renshi, Kyoshi, and Jun Shihan. The Bujinkan has Sensei, Shidoshi, Shihan, and "true Shihan" (depending on who you talk to...). Other Ryu may not even use the term "Shihan" at all.
In terms of the words themselves, Sensei (先生 literally refers to "one who has gone before", or "one who was born first", and implies that a Sensei has already gone through the processes that the student is currently going through. In this way they are a guide, helping the newer practitioner along paths familiar to the Sensei, through their previous experience.
Shihan (師範, as was covered earlier, is more about being a more perfect model, a great example of what is being taught.
Within the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, there are a range of "formalised" titles, which are probably what you are referring to here. They are:
Renshi (錬士 "refined person", with the context that the character for "person" here, 士, implies warriorship) is another term for a teacher, typically a minimum of about 4th Dan.
Kyoshi (教士 "teaching person", again with the same context for "shi"), is typically a more advanced teacher, 5th Dan or above. Interestingly, there is another form of "Kyoshi" (教師 "teaching master")which is used as a more modest way of saying "teacher", similar to "sensei".
Hanshi (範士 "model person", with the same context) is a higher rank again, 6th or 7th Dan (depending on the exact organisation or system).
There is then a further title which may be used, Meijin (名人 "named person"), which refers to a person whose name is "worthy of being known".
Then there are other titles, such as Kensei, Shidoin, Shidosha, and so on.
In terms of the words themselves, Sensei (先生
literally refers to "one who has gone before", or "one who was born first", and implies that a Sensei has already gone through the processes that the student is currently going through. In this way they are a guide, helping the newer practitioner along paths familiar to the Sensei, through their previous experience.Shihan (師範
, as was covered earlier, is more about being a more perfect model, a great example of what is being taught.Within the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, there are a range of "formalised" titles, which are probably what you are referring to here. They are:
Renshi (錬士 "refined person", with the context that the character for "person" here, 士, implies warriorship) is another term for a teacher, typically a minimum of about 4th Dan.
Kyoshi (教士 "teaching person", again with the same context for "shi"), is typically a more advanced teacher, 5th Dan or above. Interestingly, there is another form of "Kyoshi" (教師 "teaching master")which is used as a more modest way of saying "teacher", similar to "sensei".
Hanshi (範士 "model person", with the same context) is a higher rank again, 6th or 7th Dan (depending on the exact organisation or system).
There is then a further title which may be used, Meijin (名人 "named person"), which refers to a person whose name is "worthy of being known".
Then there are other titles, such as Kensei, Shidoin, Shidosha, and so on.
My couple of centavos on the subject ...
Bear in mind that these are Japanese terms, and so must be subject to Japanese societal distinctions. They are very often misused by those wishing to appear affiliated with the Japanese arts, but having no real connection with Japan to teach them how to correctly use the terms being bandied about. That being said, sensei is a term of respect, not a title. In Japan, lawyers, teachers and, depending upon the context, many older people in general are referred to as sensei. It is not something that a person calls themselves. Shihan is a conferred title, given by someone with the authority to do so such as the head of an organization. As in the use of the word sensei, one never calls themselves by the title shihan. However, unlike sensei, the title of shihan would go with a signature such as on a rank certificate, since it is a conferred title. Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi are various degrees of teaching license, again conferred by a higher authority. Many organizations use these titles, but there are many other ways of handling this and naming the various menkyo.
Also, bear in mind that since it is Japanese, there will always be exceptions to any rules or understanding we westerners may gain.
Bear in mind that these are Japanese terms, and so must be subject to Japanese societal distinctions. They are very often misused by those wishing to appear affiliated with the Japanese arts, but having no real connection with Japan to teach them how to correctly use the terms being bandied about. That being said, sensei is a term of respect, not a title. In Japan, lawyers, teachers and, depending upon the context, many older people in general are referred to as sensei. It is not something that a person calls themselves. Shihan is a conferred title, given by someone with the authority to do so such as the head of an organization. As in the use of the word sensei, one never calls themselves by the title shihan. However, unlike sensei, the title of shihan would go with a signature such as on a rank certificate, since it is a conferred title. Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi are various degrees of teaching license, again conferred by a higher authority. Many organizations use these titles, but there are many other ways of handling this and naming the various menkyo.
Also, bear in mind that since it is Japanese, there will always be exceptions to any rules or understanding we westerners may gain.
Again, it depends on the context, the organisation, system, Ryu etc. Kage Ryu only have one Shihan, and the rest are kaiin (members of the Ryu). The Genbukan have three levels of "Shihan"; Renshi, Kyoshi, and Jun Shihan. The Bujinkan has Sensei, Shidoshi, Shihan, and "true Shihan" (depending on who you talk to...). Other Ryu may not even use the term "Shihan" at all.
In terms of the words themselves, Sensei (先生
Shihan (師範
Within the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, there are a range of "formalised" titles, which are probably what you are referring to here. They are:
Renshi (錬士 "refined person", with the context that the character for "person" here, 士, implies warriorship) is another term for a teacher, typically a minimum of about 4th Dan.
Kyoshi (教士 "teaching person", again with the same context for "shi"), is typically a more advanced teacher, 5th Dan or above. Interestingly, there is another form of "Kyoshi" (教師 "teaching master")which is used as a more modest way of saying "teacher", similar to "sensei".
Hanshi (範士 "model person", with the same context) is a higher rank again, 6th or 7th Dan (depending on the exact organisation or system).
There is then a further title which may be used, Meijin (名人 "named person"), which refers to a person whose name is "worthy of being known".
Then there are other titles, such as Kensei, Shidoin, Shidosha, and so on.
Thank you for this. I see a lot of titles used in Isshin-Ryu by lineages different than my own. I'm never sure exactly what they mean. In my lineage, we have Sensei and .... that's it. Except for the founder, Shimabuku Soke. Even those in our lineage whom others have termed 'master' don't seem to be preferred to be called that; they seem to prefer to be called 'Sensei' regardless of their dan rank.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Speaking of soke, let's open up that box again shall we.
I did a search to try and see when the title of soke is appropriate and when it is not. Can someone provide a link or just explain again why some people could use the title of soke and why it doesn't make sense for just anyone to start their own style and call themselves soke?
I did a search to try and see when the title of soke is appropriate and when it is not. Can someone provide a link or just explain again why some people could use the title of soke and why it doesn't make sense for just anyone to start their own style and call themselves soke?
Professor William Bodiford wrote a terrific article for Koryu.com about the word and its traditional useage ... Soke:Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements
Soke is another one of those words that you don't use to refer to yourself.
Soke is another one of those words that you don't use to refer to yourself.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
As Paul put, Prof. Bodiford's article should be a first stop in this discussion, but for those who don't like clicking links, a brief take on it is as follows.
The term Soke (宗家 refers to "Head of the Family/House" (same second character as above in Shihanke), and is, in many cases, a hereditary title bestowed upon the legal owner of a tradition/body of knowledge. That, of course, is not universal, with a number of systems, such as the X-Kan lines, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and others don't pass the Soke title on in a hereditary fashion, instead to the best suited person to carry on the line (in the estimation of the previous Soke).
In terms of the use of the term as "founder", that's not exactly what it means at all. In fact, the term for "founder" is more commonly "Ryuso" (流宗. That said, it is not uncommon for the founder's of a tradition to later be referred to as Soke, as the title is applied to the lineage holders in that system.
There is another form of title, very similar, but without the hereditary implications, which is Iemoto (家元 - "source, or origin, or the house"). This is often used interchangably with Soke, but has a very slightly different implication to it.
When it comes to people using the term, you cannot simply start your own art and call yourself Soke. The reasons are a little complex, but essentially it comes down to the fact that the title is one that is bestowed, not self appointed, combined with the little detail that, just because you have founded a system, in no way makes you the head of any line. One thing I would argue (slightly!) with Paul on, though, is that Soke (legitimate) of Ryu-ha do refer to themselves as such... but it is not a title that you appoint to yourself. And, typically, they only ever refer to themselves as such at official functions where their position is relevant to what is being said (identifying themselves at an Embu, or the dinner afterwards in the thanks and congratulation speeches, for instance).
That said, if you haven't read the article that Paul linked, go back and read it now!
The term Soke (宗家
refers to "Head of the Family/House" (same second character as above in Shihanke), and is, in many cases, a hereditary title bestowed upon the legal owner of a tradition/body of knowledge. That, of course, is not universal, with a number of systems, such as the X-Kan lines, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and others don't pass the Soke title on in a hereditary fashion, instead to the best suited person to carry on the line (in the estimation of the previous Soke).In terms of the use of the term as "founder", that's not exactly what it means at all. In fact, the term for "founder" is more commonly "Ryuso" (流宗
. That said, it is not uncommon for the founder's of a tradition to later be referred to as Soke, as the title is applied to the lineage holders in that system.There is another form of title, very similar, but without the hereditary implications, which is Iemoto (家元 - "source, or origin, or the house"). This is often used interchangably with Soke, but has a very slightly different implication to it.
When it comes to people using the term, you cannot simply start your own art and call yourself Soke. The reasons are a little complex, but essentially it comes down to the fact that the title is one that is bestowed, not self appointed, combined with the little detail that, just because you have founded a system, in no way makes you the head of any line. One thing I would argue (slightly!) with Paul on, though, is that Soke (legitimate) of Ryu-ha do refer to themselves as such... but it is not a title that you appoint to yourself. And, typically, they only ever refer to themselves as such at official functions where their position is relevant to what is being said (identifying themselves at an Embu, or the dinner afterwards in the thanks and congratulation speeches, for instance).
That said, if you haven't read the article that Paul linked, go back and read it now!
The term Soke (宗家
The term for "founder" is more commonly "Ryuso" (流宗
There is another form of title, very similar, but without the hereditary implications, which is Iemoto (家元 - "source, or origin, or the house").
If you had to choose between one of the three, would you choose Soke Roy, Ryuso Roy or Iemoto Roy?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
None of them are appropriate. Mr Roy is the head of our organisation, not any Ryu-ha, and as a result, his title is "Chief Instructor".
What would "Chief Instructor" be in Japanese, if you don't mind my asking?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I suppose you could go with "Kancho", which means "hall chief", sometimes taken as President for an organisation. This is the title that Hatsumi, Tanemura, and Manaka hold within their various organisations, by the way, and basically means that they are at the top of the heirarchy. Ryu terminology is separate to organisational terminology.
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