Japanese Martial Arts Demonstration Clip!

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

You do not understand the subject matter.

These were not demonstrations of what a real fight is supposed to look like. These were drills that are meant to train the practicioner to do well in combat. Since you can't practice everything in these arts as is without killing someone with a sword, you have to take one part then another and then another and put them all together.

You might notice that one of the first demos had a guy from Araki ryu wrap a chain around another's neck and then the guy with the chain around his neck just stood there until the guy threw him. That is not realistic by any means. But unless you want to take the chance of snapping someone's kneck during practice, you can't just do it as a free for all event. There are ways of training to deal with resistence, but that is not being done at the time in this demo.

I would like to point out to you that these demonstrations were done at a gathering in Japan of people who do these types of things so that they can learn and exchange ideas as well as build a sense of community. Your later comment of,



shows how you look at things based on your experiences in America with no link or knowledge of what is going on in Japan. These demos were not made for the likes of you. The intended audience would be experienced martial artists that did similar stuff. They want to know more about the lessons of the past and see what the ancient forms were. Your comments about demos seem to indicate that you think of them as mainly ways of attracting students. But these were not done at a shopping mall, but at a gathering of like- minded individuals.

As others have said, there is a lot more going on than meets the eye and the people these demos were intended for were not folks that had no experience in training in koryu and were merely surfing the net. As such, they did not go through the explinations and introductions of the underlying stuff so that even you could understand it. I know of schools that do not want their stuff on the internet at all because of this type of problem with matching levels of experience with the medium. But please remember that these guys who were demonstrating were doing so with the expectation of showing what they do to people with far greater ability to catch the subtleties through their experience. Somebody else put it on the internet so that the rest of us could see it- even if we do not understand everything going on behind the curtains.

I do indeed understand the subject matter. And I do know that demos with live blades and weapons must be done with care and control. I do look at things based on my experience and observations. And my experience and observations tells me that some of this stuff just won't work.

 

[pgsmith]

And my experience and observations tells me that some of this stuff just won't work.

I think the question that needs to be asked, is "Just won't work where?" Just what is it that you are expecting these things to work for? The things that will work for a MMA fighter in the ring will not necessarily work for a security specialist in the middle east or a LEO out on his rounds. All of the martial arts in the world today were created for a specific reason to work in specific scenarios. To take a small video completely out of context and boldly declare "it won't work" seems to me to be extremely short sighted, and the height of hubris.

Just my opinions though, I'm sure others may vary.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I think the question that needs to be asked, is "Just won't work where?" Just what is it that you are expecting these things to work for? The things that will work for a MMA fighter in the ring will not necessarily work for a security specialist in the middle east or a LEO out on his rounds. All of the martial arts in the world today were created for a specific reason to work in specific scenarios. To take a small video completely out of context and boldly declare "it won't work" seems to me to be extremely short sighted, and the height of hubris.

Just my opinions though, I'm sure others may vary.

Sure, many MMA techniques won't work in a combat or law enforcement environment. But at least MMA techniques are tested against someoone who fights back. The techniques demonstrated in this video may be DESIGNED to work against a sword or knife or multiple attackers...but how long since they've been tested and PROVEN? A long time I imagine. Assuming that an untested technique is proven is a far greater act of hubris.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very nice, thank you for posting this

 

[Makalakumu]

Sure, many MMA techniques won't work in a combat or law enforcement environment. But at least MMA techniques are tested against someoone who fights back. The techniques demonstrated in this video may be DESIGNED to work against a sword or knife or multiple attackers...but how long since they've been tested and PROVEN? A long time I imagine. Assuming that an untested technique is proven is a far greater act of hubris.

One would think that techniques from a school of swordsmanship that survived from the feudel era in Japan, would contain material that has been "tested." In fact, I think the assumption could be made the tests that were used when the samurai were attempting kill one another may have been even more rigorous then any "testing" that is done now days.

 

[pgsmith]

The techniques demonstrated in this video may be DESIGNED to work against a sword or knife or multiple attackers...but how long since they've been tested and PROVEN?

I've no idea, since I don't practice the arts in that video, and do not know the instructors that are demonstrating. Nor do I know exactly what the techniques that they are demonstrating are supposed to be showing. I, personally, have no where near enough ego to think that I could understand all about these arts from simply viewing a few seconds of video. Therefore, I couldn't possibly answer your question. However, you seem to have already made up your mind in this regard, so there seems to be no point in arguing further.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I've no idea, since I don't practice the arts in that video, and do not know the instructors that are demonstrating. Nor do I know exactly what the techniques that they are demonstrating are supposed to be showing. I, personally, have no where near enough ego to think that I could understand all about these arts from simply viewing a few seconds of video. Therefore, I couldn't possibly answer your question. However, you seem to have already made up your mind in this regard, so there seems to be no point in arguing further.

So if you can't tell what it is they are demonstrating, then clearly the demonstration is a failure, no?

You don't need an in depth understanding of a particular style's nuances to see whether or not the attacker is just standing there waiting to get hit or if they are really attacking and fighting. All I can judge is what I saw on this short video. And I do know enough about Martial Arts to be UNIMPRESSED. Do you?

 

[Makalakumu]

So if you can't tell what it is they are demonstrating, then clearly the demonstration is a failure, no?

You don't need an in depth understanding of a particular style's nuances to see whether or not the attacker is just standing there waiting to get hit or if they are really attacking and fighting. All I can judge is what I saw on this short video. And I do know enough about Martial Arts to be UNIMPRESSED. Do you?

Check these guys out.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkv4d_key-ta-gracie-system

Their ukes are just standing around with their thumbs up their butts. None of that **** will ever work in a fight.

UNIMPRESSED?

Or maybe there is more here then one initially thinks?

 

[Monadnock]

Sure, many MMA techniques won't work in a combat or law enforcement environment. But at least MMA techniques are tested against someoone who fights back. The techniques demonstrated in this video may be DESIGNED to work against a sword or knife or multiple attackers...but how long since they've been tested and PROVEN? A long time I imagine. Assuming that an untested technique is proven is a far greater act of hubris.

For the record, what style of Kenpo do you study? I am wondering how that system PROVES their techniques work? I'm also wondering how they were DESIGNED? Maybe if you can explain that, someone will explain the same about these arts. Then we could compare and contrast the differences. Then, their differences in demonstration will really not matter, since we may all be convinced that in application, the stuff is going to work.

I'm of the inclination that NO technique can be PROVEN to work.

We can all look and speculate, but as soon as you think you have all the answers, that's when you get reality's slap in the face.

 

[Carol]

Moderator Note:
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

- Carol Kaur
- MartialTalk Moderator -

 

[Don Roley]

I do indeed understand the subject matter.

I am afraid not. If you did you would understand just how your comments about how a demonstration should be in the 21st century in a thread about Koryu Enbu rings about the same as saying that people playing Mozart should be using electric guitars.

You are in an area where you not only do not know the subject matter, but you are not aware that you do not know. And that has caused a bit of trouble already. If you admit that you do not know everything and that other people have managed to form ways of training totally different from your experiences and yet at least as effective then you start to open your eyes to the lessons you can pick up.

But to do that, you will have to try to gain the begginers mind and toss away the image that you have of yourself as an expert. That is very difficult to do. It is very easy to say that you are doing that. But in actual practice, people are loath to act as if they do not know all the answers.

So I hope you will consider this and take the oppurtunity here at Martialtalk to learn from others that have the experience in koryu arts such as Daito ryu aikijutsu that you lack. But at the very least, I would like you to consider keeping your depreciating comments to yourself unless you have been at or participated in a Koryu enbu in Japan like the folks in the clip have. We may not be able to educate you in that case, but at least the moderators will have an easier job.

There is more to this world than you have knowledge of or experienced.

 

[Makalakumu]

But to do that, you will have to try to gain the begginers mind and toss away the image that you have of yourself as an expert.

I'm wondering if this is a cultural thing. Sometimes, the inability to do this seems like an American trademark. Is the same attitude prevelent in Japan, or are people pretty much the same in this aspect?

 

[Don Roley]

I'm wondering if this is a cultural thing. Sometimes, the inability to do this seems like an American trademark. Is the same attitude prevelent in Japan, or are people pretty much the same in this aspect?

Trust me, people may say different things under the same circumstances due to their upbringing, but scratch them and they are all the same under the skin.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I am afraid not. If you did you would understand just how your comments about how a demonstration should be in the 21st century in a thread about Koryu Enbu rings about the same as saying that people playing Mozart should be using electric guitars.

No. I am not saying that people playing Mozart should be using electric guitars. I am saying that they should be playing with the same tension and aliveness as when the music was new. Many of the attacks in the demo were dead. I understand the difference between alive and dead martial arts just as I do in music.

You are in an area where you not only do not know the subject matter, but you are not aware that you do not know. And that has caused a bit of trouble already. If you admit that you do not know everything and that other people have managed to form ways of training totally different from your experiences and yet at least as effective then you start to open your eyes to the lessons you can pick up.

OK, you are right. I don't know this subject matter. I just watched a demo that was weak compared to the subject matter I am familiar with. You don't need to study alchemy to know that chemistry works better.

But to do that, you will have to try to gain the begginers mind and toss away the image that you have of yourself as an expert. That is very difficult to do. It is very easy to say that you are doing that. But in actual practice, people are loath to act as if they do not know all the answers.

Yes it is hard to toss away the "expert" mind and think like a beginner. I watched this video with an open mind and found it lacking. You are the one approaching it as an expert and claiming that I am ignorant because I am not impressed.

So I hope you will consider this and take the oppurtunity here at Martialtalk to learn from others that have the experience in koryu arts such as Daito ryu aikijutsu that you lack. But at the very least, I would like you to consider keeping your depreciating comments to yourself unless you have been at or participated in a Koryu enbu in Japan like the folks in the clip have. We may not be able to educate you in that case, but at least the moderators will have an easier job.

I have participated in countless static demonstrations like these as defender, as an uke, as an announcer, and as a spectator. I have not participated in a martial arts demo in Japan -- but I have seen some. And you don't need to go to Japan to see a demo of Japanese martial arts. And you certainly don't need to go that far to see a good one.

There is more to this world than you have knowledge of or experienced.

True for everyone.

So clearly from the responses the Japanese Martial Arts discussion forum in Martial Talk is not an open forum where people can intelligently discuss the strengths and weaknesses of presented material. Instead, it seems to be the haven of traditionalists who want to celebrate the myth of pre-WWII Japanese Martial Arts superiority.

Since we have all had our say, I will now leave you to your celebration of the pursuit of spiritual and physical perfection through traditional musketry, archery, chain-whippery, and letting-yourself-get-tossed-around-on-a-hardwood-floorery.

Adios.

 

[pgsmith]

Instead, it seems to be the haven of traditionalists who want to celebrate the myth of pre-WWII Japanese Martial Arts superiority.

I was going to stay out of this since it seems pretty pointless, but I have to say that the only one that has mentioned anything about superior or inferior is you. It seems to me that the rest of the participants in this thread have merely pointed out that you've no idea what's going on in the videos. For some odd reason, you seem to have taken this for a personal attack, and have gone all defensive and abrasive about it. Whatever you wish to believe is fine with me, I've no reason to convince you otherwise. Makes me feel a bit sorry for anyone that you may choose to instruct some day as a closed mind is a terrible thing in the martial arts. Perhaps with more time and training you'll come to realize just how little we all know.

 

[Monadnock]

Exactly. My previous post was an open door to put his terms up, or shut up. As he said, it's an open forum but maybe it's better to stay on your own side if you'd got nothing better to do than troll around.

"Ussss"

 

[Don Roley]

So clearly from the responses the Japanese Martial Arts discussion forum in Martial Talk is not an open forum where people can intelligently discuss the strengths and weaknesses of presented material.

I think we would prefer it if we actually discussed things going on in Japan. There are other forums where we can talk about other arts. But if you don't know about Japanese martial arts like Daito ryu it just seems natural that you ask more questions instead of talking as if you know all that is going on. To have an intelligent conversation, people have to be informed and leave their preconceptions at the door.

For example, I would like to take time to address the matter you raised in my rep bax when you wrote,

Step out of Japan and see what else is going on in Martial Arts

FYI, I spend a good amount of time outside of Japan training with other martial artists. A few summers ago I went to a group of Indonesian stylists and stayed with one of them. One night they threw in some tapes of various people. Some of the folks they laughed at, and some they nodded at with respect. To me, a lot of what both groups were doing looked alike. Neither was realistic in terms of street attacks, etc. But when you are talking about the process by which skills are learned some elements are not going to look the way we expect them to look.

So I stayed silent and asked questions about the differences to a point where I could start seeing what they were talking about. It took several days of hands on instruction, but it was a good education. In this case, you merely lack that type of experience.

 

[cstanley]

Isn't it kind of stupid and presumptuous for some guy from kempo to butt into a Japanese forum and make pronouncements? You clearly don't know what you are talking about, and nobody in Japanese arts is going to take you seriously, anyway. My experience with guys like you is that they can't handle the structure and discipline of the traditional ryu, so they choose something like kempo that is pretty unstructured and "clubby," then continue bitching about what the Japanese do. Can you say, "sour grapes?"

 

[howard]

I think we should all be fair here.

Old Fat Kenpoka is skeptical of some of what he saw on the Daito-ryu clip. Nothing wrong with that. Furthermore, his posts have been respectful.

I train in Daito-ryu. I believe it is a beautiful classical art, and that its principles are very applicable to modern self defense. But, like OFK, I find those demo techniques in which five "attackers" are taken down simutlaneously to be highly suspect. Would that work against five thugs in an alleyway who were determined to take you apart and separate you from your wallet?

Rather than simply dismissing any criticism of koryu arts by calling the critics things like "stupid" and "presumptuous", and accusing them of "bitching" about JMA when all they're really doing is raising valid questions, why not try to refute their points with logic about your art?

I direct this comment at your post, and not at you personally... I think that the closed-minded elitism in your post is something that turns many people off to the koryu arts. And that's truly a shame. You won't find a hint of that attitude in the Daito-ryu dojo where I train. Nor in the Hapkido dojang where I spend most of my training time.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I think we should all be fair here.

Old Fat Kenpoka is skeptical of some of what he saw on the Daito-ryu clip. Nothing wrong with that. Furthermore, his posts have been respectful.

I train in Daito-ryu. I believe it is a beautiful classical art, and that its principles are very applicable to modern self defense. But, like OFK, I find those demo techniques in which five "attackers" are taken down simutlaneously to be highly suspect. Would that work against five thugs in an alleyway who were determined to take you apart and separate you from your wallet?

Rather than simply dismissing any criticism of koryu arts by calling the critics things like "stupid" and "presumptuous", and accusing them of "bitching" about JMA when all they're really doing is raising valid questions, why not try to refute their points with logic about your art?

I direct this comment at your post, and not at you personally... I think that the closed-minded elitism in your post is something that turns many people off to the koryu arts. And that's truly a shame. You won't find a hint of that attitude in the Daito-ryu dojo where I train. Nor in the Hapkido dojang where I spend most of my training time.

Thank you.