Xue Sheng
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It’s about Self-defense not ‘da Vinci’- from the blog
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It’s about Self-defense not ‘da Vinci’
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
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Your link is borked - you've got an extra "ttp//" in the url.
Just a thought - "Da Vinci" and "combative" don't have to be exclusive:
Just a thought - "Da Vinci" and "combative" don't have to be exclusive:
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
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Tony, really....
I know about Da Vinci combatives and inventions and all sorts of things Da Vinci did (read more than one book on the topic). But I was looking for an artist that many would know and I pick Da Vinci....I was between Degas, Michelangelo and Da Vinci. I decided against Michelangelo because of the TMT association and I felt Degas was less recognizable than Da Vinci, so I went with Leonardo . And to be 100% truthful the original title was "It's about Self-defense not the Pietà."
But, seriously, if it will stop this sort of thing, I will happily change it to Degas or Monet or Pietà
Link fixed, the H was missing from http
I know about Da Vinci combatives and inventions and all sorts of things Da Vinci did (read more than one book on the topic). But I was looking for an artist that many would know and I pick Da Vinci....I was between Degas, Michelangelo and Da Vinci. I decided against Michelangelo because of the TMT association and I felt Degas was less recognizable than Da Vinci, so I went with Leonardo . And to be 100% truthful the original title was "It's about Self-defense not the Pietà."
But, seriously, if it will stop this sort of thing, I will happily change it to Degas or Monet or Pietà
Link fixed, the H was missing from http
If you had said "Michelangelo", I definitely would have posted a picture of the ninja turtle. Not sure what I could find for Degas, but there must be something.
I look at it similarly.....and a bit different -
"Basically I have tended towards a definition of Art as: “something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings”. And based on that I do not see anything that, to me, says that Art, or Artists as being used properly in combination with martial."
To me, not being in a traditional style, that's exactly what we do. We are artists, we create. With as much skill as we have, and, hopefully, with imagination. (good resources help, too) I've always considered it beautiful, and it sure is important. At least to us.
"Basically I have tended towards a definition of Art as: “something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings”. And based on that I do not see anything that, to me, says that Art, or Artists as being used properly in combination with martial."
To me, not being in a traditional style, that's exactly what we do. We are artists, we create. With as much skill as we have, and, hopefully, with imagination. (good resources help, too) I've always considered it beautiful, and it sure is important. At least to us.
It seems this comes up over and over again. Is what we do a 'martial art' when it is neither martial (meaning most of us are not currently serving in the armed forces), nor is it an 'art' in the sense of a poem or a painting.
Let me first be clear that I don't really care. You can call a hand grenade a biscuit but I would not put one in the oven. If someone objects to the term, let them call it something else. Fine by me. Just don't ask me to change what *I* call what I do. I use the term 'martial art' and I believe that no one is confused when I use it. I don't think anyone wonders if I paint with my kicks or go to war with my empty hands.
I actually tend to think of myself as 'karateka' engaged in a 'do', rather than a 'jutso'. Basically meaning that I am a student of empty-handed martial arts, engaged in exploring a 'way' or a 'path', as opposed to a 'fighting style'.
I know, I know, everyone objects to words, especially foreign words. I've been reproached by many, each explaining in teensy-weensy detail how every word I use is wrong. Karate is not correct, karateka is not correct, I'm using the terms 'do' and 'jutsu' wrong, etc, etc. Again...don't care. Define the words as you wish, all you pouncetrifles out there! Don't bother me with your nattering on the subject, if you don't mind. I won't be changing definitions to fit narrow minds requirements.
What I believe is this. Karate (what I study) can be a do, or a way. Calligraphy is a do. Flower arranging is a do. Tea making is a do. It's really not the core 'art' (that word again) that is important, so much as it is that the 'do' you choose satisfies your soul.
I like to practice karate. I call it martial arts. I think of it as karatedo. I believe I am on a path that will lead me from here until the end of my life, whenever that may be. Others can call it chicken soup if that's what makes them happy; I truly do not care, nor do I feel like arguing over minutia like that anymore. It was fun once, but it bores me to tears now.
No offense to the OP; I did enjoy your blog post as well as your musings on the subject!
Let me first be clear that I don't really care. You can call a hand grenade a biscuit but I would not put one in the oven. If someone objects to the term, let them call it something else. Fine by me. Just don't ask me to change what *I* call what I do. I use the term 'martial art' and I believe that no one is confused when I use it. I don't think anyone wonders if I paint with my kicks or go to war with my empty hands.
I actually tend to think of myself as 'karateka' engaged in a 'do', rather than a 'jutso'. Basically meaning that I am a student of empty-handed martial arts, engaged in exploring a 'way' or a 'path', as opposed to a 'fighting style'.
I know, I know, everyone objects to words, especially foreign words. I've been reproached by many, each explaining in teensy-weensy detail how every word I use is wrong. Karate is not correct, karateka is not correct, I'm using the terms 'do' and 'jutsu' wrong, etc, etc. Again...don't care. Define the words as you wish, all you pouncetrifles out there! Don't bother me with your nattering on the subject, if you don't mind. I won't be changing definitions to fit narrow minds requirements.
What I believe is this. Karate (what I study) can be a do, or a way. Calligraphy is a do. Flower arranging is a do. Tea making is a do. It's really not the core 'art' (that word again) that is important, so much as it is that the 'do' you choose satisfies your soul.
I like to practice karate. I call it martial arts. I think of it as karatedo. I believe I am on a path that will lead me from here until the end of my life, whenever that may be. Others can call it chicken soup if that's what makes them happy; I truly do not care, nor do I feel like arguing over minutia like that anymore. It was fun once, but it bores me to tears now.
No offense to the OP; I did enjoy your blog post as well as your musings on the subject!
OP
Xue Sheng
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No offense taken, but Bill, everything in your post says you to care, and rather deeply, about it, not so much the terminology, but the meaning.
As for foreign words, you should spend some time in TCMA, we throw those around all the time, and it is expected too...I willing to bet more Chen guys use "Jin Gang Dao Dui" than use "Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar"...or at least that is what I use...and I am not actually a Chen guy, I have just trained it a bit...heck I use Lan-zha-yi all the time, it is just easier than saying Lazily Tying Coat
Correct. I care about what I do, but not really all that much about what people choose to call it. I've been through the "you can't call karate a martial art because blah blah blah blah." Yeah, whatever. Call it a ham sammich. I'm good with it. I'll just keep training and ignoring that noise.
As for foreign words, you should spend some time in TCMA, we throw those around all the time, and it is expected too...I willing to bet more Chen guys use "Jin Gang Dao Dui" than use "Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar"...or at least that is what I use...and I am not actually a Chen guy, I have just trained it a bit...heck I use Lan-zha-yi all the time, it is just easier than saying Lazily Tying Coat
I'm not Japanese (or Chinese) and although I lived in Okinawa for a year in the Marines, I cannot say I am anything close to proficient with the language. I do know that while I lived there, I was occasionally complimented by native Okinawans on my accent, which I took to mean I was using some words correctly and pronouncing them as they did themselves. I was just a semi-good mimic, I think.
However, I've been informed more than once in recent years about how I used this Japanese term incorrectly, or that's not how it is said, or whatever others feel is incorrect. Everyone is an expert or they've got an opinion. I'm great with that. I'd never insist that they use the words I use or say them the way I say them. Fine with me. Let me be me, they can be themselves, and we can all be happy, even if we say the words incorrectly.
just tell them to stop being so Baka and leave it at that
Takusan baka. (I will be corrected for that, no doubt).
Tgace
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"Art"...as defined in most western philosophical contexts involves some sort of personal expression through a chosen medium.
The "expression" can be just about anything, but there's usually a "message" of some sort that separates the artistic activity from a Craft or a Skill.
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The "expression" can be just about anything, but there's usually a "message" of some sort that separates the artistic activity from a Craft or a Skill.
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JR 137
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DaVinci was a ninja turtle - Leonardo
Not so. Craft can be elevated to the level of art, and high craft is taught at the most prestigious art schools -- at least in the U.S.A. Which is why artists and fine craftsman often apply qualifiers to the term art, such as high art, functional art, visual art, performing art, performance art, process art, fine craft, etc. Really the term art is used quite broadly in English to describe a lot of very different things. I pursued my graduate degree (M.F.A.) in the visual arts and at one point had to take a rather tedious course in aesthetics. There was a large and costly textbook with compilations of essays on the topic. All that and not much agreement.
Short version, I'm fine with the term Martial Art. And regardless of whether you love it or hate it, it's firmly established in our language.
Tgace
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I too have an MFA...and had to go through the philosophy of Art courses.
The definition of "Art" and the old "Art vs Craft Debate" can lead down the same rabbit hole as "Which is better for Self-defense, Aikido or MMA?"
Some folks insist Art is the expression of emotion, others an aesthetic/philosophical expression like cubism, post-modernism etc.
In the "Martial Arts"...arts like Aikido can be viewed as an expression of the founders philosophy more than a craftsman like honing of skill to perfection.
That's my .02 at least. Others have different definitions, but that's been the nature of "Art debates" since the Ancient Greeks recorded their thoughts on the subject.
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The definition of "Art" and the old "Art vs Craft Debate" can lead down the same rabbit hole as "Which is better for Self-defense, Aikido or MMA?"
Some folks insist Art is the expression of emotion, others an aesthetic/philosophical expression like cubism, post-modernism etc.
In the "Martial Arts"...arts like Aikido can be viewed as an expression of the founders philosophy more than a craftsman like honing of skill to perfection.
That's my .02 at least. Others have different definitions, but that's been the nature of "Art debates" since the Ancient Greeks recorded their thoughts on the subject.
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Tgace
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I have always found this discussion interesting from the perspective of how people seem to attach some sort of superior value to Art vs. "just a craft". I don't believe the two necessarily have a value difference.
Personally, I have always wanted to be more of a highly skilled craftsman vs an artist when it came to martial/military/shooting skills. Not being viewed as an "Artist" never bothered, offended or disturbed me in the least.
Of course my art background was in Graphic Design, so I was always more of the Red-Headed bastard child of the Art program when I was being schooled anyway.
Certainly the "graphic arts" had aesthetic/philosophic schools (Bauhaus, Deconstructionism, The Swiss School, etc) and some designers considered themselves Artists, but others viewed Art vs Design much as I do Art vs Craft.
Personally, I have always wanted to be more of a highly skilled craftsman vs an artist when it came to martial/military/shooting skills. Not being viewed as an "Artist" never bothered, offended or disturbed me in the least.
Of course my art background was in Graphic Design, so I was always more of the Red-Headed bastard child of the Art program when I was being schooled anyway.
Certainly the "graphic arts" had aesthetic/philosophic schools (Bauhaus, Deconstructionism, The Swiss School, etc) and some designers considered themselves Artists, but others viewed Art vs Design much as I do Art vs Craft.
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Tgace
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This mans writings are pretty apropos:
The Art in Martial Arts | YMAA.COM
He is leaning towards a definition of "Artisan" vs "Artist". Which in art philosophy has been expressed by some as Artisan=Skilled Practitioner of Craft and Artist=making of tangible or intangible products as an expression of creativity and imagination for purely aesthetic reasons.
The Art in Martial Arts | YMAA.COM
He is leaning towards a definition of "Artisan" vs "Artist". Which in art philosophy has been expressed by some as Artisan=Skilled Practitioner of Craft and Artist=making of tangible or intangible products as an expression of creativity and imagination for purely aesthetic reasons.
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Whenever I feel the desired to dig into this topic, I always come back to this one, Tgace. I train artisans, whose "artistry" is not the same as an artist's "artistry". Unfortunately, my musings hit a snag when I realize I do, in fact, use the term "martial artist" rather than "martial artisan". Damned words.
If we go to a different (non-aesthetic) usage of "art", we get a more useful view of the word "art". Look at the "dark arts". Clearly that's not about painting on black velvet (though that surely is a dark art in every sense).
