Isn't Bas Ruttens hook delivered in this study suboptimally executed?

[Gerry Seymour]

We call that one an undercut. Neat little punch.

None of my boxing-derived strikes are likely to be technically correct. From now on, I'm going to claim I learned them from Bas and DB, and that's why they are so "imperfect". Yep, that's my story from now on.

 

[JR 137]

"Rutten submitted Japanese wrestler Kazuo "Yoshiki" Takahashi with an inverted heel hook during a grappling exchange which had been overconfidently initiated by Kazuo. The hold completely broke Takahashi's shin bone and gained Rutten an honorary 5th degree black belt in Kyokushin Budokai by Jon Bluming after he learned the fact".

Just as a point of order...

Jon Blumming's "Kyokushin Budokai" isn't Mas Oyama's Kyokushin. Bumming had a high dan rank in judo before stepping foot in Oyama's Kyokushinkaikan dojo. He trained there for a while, then left and formed his own art, which for all intents and purposes is an MMA art. He named his art Kyokushin Budokai. Kyokushin was all the rage back then, so it was possible that he was trying to ride its coattail a bit. And Blumming, while an by all accounts an excellent practitioner and fighter, isn't a very reliable source for MA information. He's contradicted himself quite often and many of his claims have been refuted. But he is an excellent MAist nonetheless.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

None of my boxing-derived strikes are likely to be technically correct. From now on, I'm going to claim I learned them from Bas and DB, and that's why they are so "imperfect". Yep, that's my story from now on.

If I were to teach you boxing, I would give you a set of techniques, principles, and rules to follow that the majority of boxing coaches would agree were technically correct.

If you were then to watch technical analysis of various world champions, from Ali to Tyson, you could probably find at least one great boxer consistently breaking almost every rule I taught you.

That doesn't mean these great fighters were moving suboptimally. It means they understood the rules well enough to know how and when and why to break them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I were to teach you boxing, I would give you a set of techniques, principles, and rules to follow that the majority of boxing coaches would agree were technically correct.

If you were then to watch technical analysis of various world champions, from Ali to Tyson, you could probably find at least one great boxer consistently breaking almost every rule I taught you.

That doesn't mean these great fighters were moving suboptimally. It means they understood the rules well enough to know how and when and why to break them.

Since my boxing-derived punches are loosely derived therefrom, I'm likely violating more than they are. Perhaps that's why they box better than me...

 

[drop bear]

None of my boxing-derived strikes are likely to be technically correct. From now on, I'm going to claim I learned them from Bas and DB, and that's why they are so "imperfect". Yep, that's my story from now on.

The term is unorthodox. Just so you know. I know some guys who have grown up learning very conventional boxing. It is interesting the difference.

Amateur boxers tend more towards the concept of technically correct. Pro boxers just kind of do their own thing.

So most people are not going off technically correct boxing.

 

[Axiom]

However he was already a 2nd Dan in that style. He wasn't given those, .

How do you know that? He has been very public about dissatisfaction with Kyokushins sparring format.and why he transitioned to Muay Thai to get to punch people in the face.

Coupling together that comment, his tender age, the timeline of switching styles back and forth, does that sound like someone staying long enough for second degree black belt?

 

[Axiom]

Yes it is correct. Combat sports determine correctness by effect rather than athetics.

Which is the correct way to determine correctness.

So....Has Bas Rutten ever KO*ed someone with that hook in competition? I'm not saying he hasn't, simply that it's by no means obvious simply because it was powerful. Have to be pragmatic to work as well.

 

[Steve]

So....Has Bas Rutten ever KO*ed someone with that hook in competition? I'm not saying he hasn't, simply that it's by no means obvious simply because it was powerful. Have to be pragmatic to work as well.

Has Bas ever KO'd someone with that hook? Rumor is, he killed 7 with one blow. Not in competition, though,.

 

[Axiom]

Has Bas ever KO'd someone with that hook? Rumor is, he killed 7 with one blow. Not in competition, though,.

I know el guapo is a badass, but I have yet to see him KO any world class striker. withthat. MMA japanese wrestlers is one thing... He did do well in Thaiboxing competition but I don't know what his trademark was.

 

[drop bear]

So....Has Bas Rutten ever KO*ed someone with that hook in competition? I'm not saying he hasn't, simply that it's by no means obvious simply because it was powerful. Have to be pragmatic to work as well.

He does like to throw in competition.

 

[Tez3]

How do you know that? He has been very public about dissatisfaction with Kyokushins sparring format.and why he transitioned to Muay Thai to get to punch people in the face.

Coupling together that comment, his tender age, the timeline of switching styles back and forth, does that sound like someone staying long enough for second degree black belt?

How do I know that? because he said so...... I even gave you the quote where he said it and to whom.

Why are you arguing about him, why does it matter so much to you? It seems to me that you don't like him and are slagging him off because you want to discredit him. You said this was a thread about 'technique' but seem to be ranting because I called him a karateka. Well, even if he has done a minimum of karate then he's still a karateka.

You have started a thread about an MMA fighter doing a demo for a programme and are asking whether it's a good boxing punch or not. That doesn't make sense.

 

[Axiom]

How do I know that? because he said so...... I even gave you the quote where he said it and to whom.
.

I'm not disputing that he holds the rank. What I am disputing is that he trained for the rank. He did not. Bas dabbled in both Taekwondo (which he claims himself he already left around green belt) and Kyokushin as a teenager before finally settling on Muay Thai as his stand-up.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm not disputing that he holds the rank. What I am disputing is that he trained for the rank. He did not. Bas dabbled in both Taekwondo (which he claims himself he already left around green belt) and Kyokushin as a teenager before finally settling on Muay Thai as his stand-up.

You keep saying that. Do you have a source for that information? We know that Bas's 5th dan in Bluming's organization was an honorary rank. Do you have reasons for believing his 2nd dan wasn't earned? Even if he switched to Muay Thai in his teens, it's perfectly possible to earn a Kyokushin 2nd dan as a teenager.

As far as Bas's right hook, it's not orthodox by boxing, Muay Thai, or karate standards. (A rear hook to the head isn't really a standard fundamental in boxing anyway, although you can find pros using it. The lead hook is the standard technique.)

As far as Bas's technique goes, he generates power by driving off his rear leg, transferring his body weight from his rear leg to his front, while pulling his left shoulder back to aid in rotation of his hips and upper body to throw his right arm more forward. His right arm and shoulder lag slightly behind his body at the start of the rotation causing a slight elastic stretching of the muscles in his chest and front deltoids. These stretched muscles then contract before the fist makes impact, adding even more force.

It's a powerful strike, which suits Bas's style as a forward moving powerful brawler. It would be suboptimal for my style of fighting, but it certainly works well for him.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not disputing that he holds the rank. What I am disputing is that he trained for the rank. He did not. Bas dabbled in both Taekwondo (which he claims himself he already left around green belt) and Kyokushin as a teenager before finally settling on Muay Thai as his stand-up.

You are disputing he holds 2nd Dan but aren't showing us any reason to doubt him when he says he has it. You are also saying he 'dabbled' but not explaining what you mean by 'dabbling.' All you are coming out with is hearsay. When he says he has a 2nd Dan he earnt I see no reason to disbelieve him nor do I see what it has to do with his punching power.

 

[Axiom]

Let's drop this discussion. I have already stated how it's improbable that mr Rutten earned a second degree black belt in the purported time he spent training as a teenager. If you want to believe he did earn it by training, then fine.

 

[Tez3]

Let's drop this discussion. I have already stated how it's improbable that mr Rutten earned a second degree black belt in the purported time he spent training as a teenager. If you want to believe he did earn it by training, then fine.

You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. You can make all the statements you like but if you can't or won't back them up with facts then they are just your opinions.
This has nothing to do with any 'belief' especially not mine ( I don't actually care) that he gained his Dan grades by training, it has all to do with you telling us Bas Rutten is lying. You have started something you cannot finish, you has said that karatekas want to claim him, I know of no such thing, you state he didn't earn his grades, you show us nothing to back that claim up. All this because we told you he isn't a boxer yet you are critiquing his punches as if he were, to his detriment. Now you want to drop the subject, fine, but please understand how weak your points are when you provide no proof to back up your allegations. The man says he has the grades, why should we doubt him? You have a chip on your shoulder about him as well as a couple of others things, this isn't the place to brings your prejudices.

 

[Steve]

I don't think it's impossible for Bas to have a legit 2nd Dan in karate as a teenager, but if an 18 year old came onto this forum and alleged to be a 2nd dan, I expect he'd have to run the gauntlet. Point being that both sides are reasonable, and neither side could possibly know the actual truth of the situation.