Is this a problem

[M F]

Let me clarify my position here. I apologize if I have insulted the Tatum organization as a whole. This was not my intention. From all that I know of Mr. Tatum, he and his organization are very respectable. He is without a doubt one of the most skilled Kenpoists today. My objection is only to the use of a school patch obviously copied from another organizations Crest. I bear aboslutely no animosity towards Mr. Tatum or the LTKKA.

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I mean, it could be worse...could feature Barney and Tony the Tiger....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I love that comment!

- Ceicei

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Okay, so my question is simple,"If Bob Jones and this TENDOU guy, whatever his name is, belong to the Tatum organization why aren't they copying tatum's patch and making derivatives of IT to put on their sleeves instead of taking the AKKI or AKKS patches and making DERIVATIVEs of them to put on their sleeves?"

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by M F

Let me clarify my position here. I apologize if I have insulted the Tatum organization as a whole. This was not my intention. From all that I know of Mr. Tatum, he and his organization are very respectable. He is without a doubt one of the most skilled Kenpoists today. My objection is only to the use of a school patch obviously copied from another organizations Crest. I bear aboslutely no animosity towards Mr. Tatum or the LTKKA.

Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

Okay, so my question is simple,"If Bob Jones and this TENDOU guy, whatever his name is, belong to the Tatum organization why aren't they copying tatum's patch and making derivatives of IT to put on their sleeves instead of taking the AKKI or AKKS patches and making DERIVATIVEs of them to put on their sleeves?"

And... Like... Oh my god... They like... Use the same belt ranking system too!

Maybe the off-shoot systems of American Kenpo should come up with their own belt ranking system? Perhaps... Maybe... Possibly... Add A PINK BELT to distinguish their obviously SUPERIOR system from ours?

 

[Fastmover]

The patches are very similar in my opinion. I think when most people design their own patch they put a lot of thought into doing it. Often there is great significance placed on the design to illustrate things such as historical root and/or origination philosophy. For Instance many new Kenpo patches out there today have incorporated the shape of Mr. Parkers original patch in some fashion. This probably done to give credit to the one who planted the seed and as I said provide a historical perspective.

It would seem to me that in designing a new patch, one would want to give credit to the organization and/or individuals who influenced them the most. Maybe this is the case In Mr. Jones case since he did train with Mr. Mills many years ago?? However I do find it Little odd that since he does currently study under the philosophies of Mr. Tatum, he didn’t illustrate this in his patch in some fashion. This would seem like a logical thing to do to avoid confusion in who you are representing and what you do. Personally I think the LTKKA patch is really nice and it easily recognizable to anyone who sees it. Seems to me this would be desirable to someone who trains under him.

Maybe someone could shed some light on the meaning of these patches to put all this into perspective???

 

[jeffkyle]

You guys got me thinking....I am going to sue my dad because he looks so much like me. I am sure that is some kind of copywright/trademark violation. I am going to see if I can get him for everything he has....maybe I will get my inheritence early! :shrug: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
You guys got me thinking....I am going to sue my dad because he looks so much like me. I am sure that is some kind of copywright/trademark violation. I am going to see if I can get him for everything he has....maybe I will get my inheritence early! :shrug: :rofl: :rofl:

I think you have an idea there... Unfortunately I think I might have the Mailman's eyes <--- ( Just kidding mom )

 

[Michael Billings]

Patches are similar ... SO WHAT!! We do come from the same "Source", the designer is frequently the same person, we just personalize them to make them unique to our Associations for our own reasons ... once again SO WHAT?

This is rhetorical and I do not expect an answer, but enjoy the patches and organizations, for their uniqueness, for their differences, for us all being part of a Family of Kenpo (albeit a dysfunctional family sometimes, with lots of lost branches, cousins, neices and nephews that we have not met.)

Why are certain people determined to stir this pot and like or thrive on the dissent and arguing?

Why ask why? Have at it, and No Worries ... if you have nothing better to train or use your minds for. Otherwise, lets get on with it and quit alienating Seniors or Association heads and their students.

A not very tolerant -Michael

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by M F
What bothers me is that this guy was formerly affiliated with the AKKI. After leaving, he takes ALL of the elements of the AKKI crest that make it different, and copies them. That is bad business.

It's also evidence of:
Poor taste
Lack of creativity
absence of original thought
shallow ethic

...the list goes on.
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
ALL the damn patches have common elements for the same reason that all the kids of a family look somewhat alike. What would actually be interesting--because ultimately, this sort of mean-spirited pettiness isn't interesting--would be to do a structuralist analysis of the relationships among all the patches.

If you're not sure of what that is, plug in, "structural study of myth," and do a Net search...

((I'll skip your put-downs for now and deal with the more substantive argument))
But Robert, don't you think that the patches should deviate substantially from one another? Especially if the two systems deviate well enough from one another? I mean look at those patches again, one takes from three (most heavily the AKKI) and the other does a 90% take from the AKKI crest. Please.

Most of the non-IKKA patches are substantially different from the original crest. They are good and show originality.
What do you think?

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Fastmover
The patches are very similar in my opinion. I think when most people design their own patch they put a lot of thought into doing it. Often there is great significance placed on the design to illustrate things such as historical root and/or origination philosophy. For Instance many new Kenpo patches out there today have incorporated the shape of Mr. Parkers original patch in some fashion. This probably done to give credit to the one who planted the seed and as I said provide a historical perspective.

It would seem to me that in designing a new patch, one would want to give credit to the organization and/or individuals who influenced them the most. Maybe this is the case In Mr. Jones case since he did train with Mr. Mills many years ago?? However I do find it Little odd that since he does currently study under the philosophies of Mr. Tatum, he didn’t illustrate this in his patch in some fashion. This would seem like a logical thing to do to avoid confusion in who you are representing and what you do. Personally I think the LTKKA patch is really nice and it easily recognizable to anyone who sees it. Seems to me this would be desirable to someone who trains under him.

Maybe someone could shed some light on the meaning of these patches to put all this into perspective???

Fastmover has excellent points here, some that no-one else is addressing.
worth some thought.

Your brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

Brother John:

I don't mean to offend you, since your posts generally seem reasonable, and intelligent, and helpful, to me.

However, these discussions of the patches are in several cases--not all, butt several--simply mean-spirited. And furthermore, the relationships among the patches can easily be understood by anyone who takes the trouble to follow through the topics I suggested.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Brother John:
I don't mean to offend you, since your posts generally seem reasonable, and intelligent, and helpful, to me.
However, these discussions of the patches are in several cases--not all, butt several--simply mean-spirited. And furthermore, the relationships among the patches can easily be understood by anyone who takes the trouble to follow through the topics I suggested.

No problem Robert. Thanks for the friendly qualifier first though, not needed...but it's one of those things where it's the gesture that counts. :asian:

I agree that sometimes this can get mean spirited, which is very antithetical to how I like to approach the Kenpo community at large (though there are minor factions that I don't even bother to fein respect for...I'm just following mom's advice and not saying anything at all.) So I hope I didn't come across as being too hostile or whatnot.

I think that Mr. John Connolly (Fast Mover) had some VERY good points, really. I think that they could lead into a much more productive conversation on this topic of the similarity/or/copying of patch design.

I also agree with some who say "It doesn't change my reverse punch or front kick...so why bother." True. If it's not important for you, don't worry about anything in this thread. Go on training, I will...regardless. I'd suspect that those that care will post/read/reply... and that those who don't would read the first entry here and click back to find a new thread. Due to the number of replies, it does seem to matter to some; and bears looking into further.

What is a crest? Isn't it a visual representation of the character, ideals, vision and approach of your particular school/association/art? I know that the AKKI patch has a great deal of symbolic significance to it, only a smattering of which is written down in our belt manuals: http://www.akki.com/articles/crest.html

I, for one, am very honored and proud to wear this patch and be a part of what it represents. It is distinctive. Though you can definitely tell that it is related to it's predecessor from the IKKA, you can tell it is uniquely different. This alone speaks to the fact that we came from the original teachings and vision of SGM Parker (similarities) and yet shows that our course has changed from that of our parent organization (the distinctiveness). Therefore if one must borrow or carry-over from one or another patch... perhaps at least it should be from the patch of the org/association/art that they came up from. In the above cited patches you have one from a man/group that, to my understanding, has had nothing at all to do with the AKKI... yet his patch is VERY close to ours. To me that doesn't seem right. The next patch has some of our more distinctive features, yet he has had a very basic problem with our association from the top down and has put us down before. So why take from our very cool artwork? He's severed ties and really left a LONG time before much of the major revision/overhaul of the material took place (which is still very much going on), so those things that make our members practical and even theoretical underpinnings distinctive... he missed out on. Why take from the distinctiveness of the patch then?
These are my points, my views... I am a member of the AKKI but in no way am I it's voice.
Your Brother
John

 

[donald]

In the words of the 20th century philosopher, B.Bunny E.F.A., taken from his pre, and post WWII comments.

"Whats all the hub bub, Bub? "

If you want to get down to brass tacks. Mr.Tatum did a fine job of coming up with a unique kenpo crest for his organization. Even so his still has elements of the more recent ones, i.e. the dragon. Its my belief that there are so many BECAUSE of Mr.Parker's IKKA patch. It was, and is a good design, and now carries some serious weight as a identifiable product since Mr.Parker's death. I also believe if Mr.Parker were still with us. This conversation would be moot. Because they (the patch designers)would have Sr., to deal with! As stated in some previous post. Get on with it man, let-it-go...

:asian:

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by donald
if Mr.Parker were still with us. This conversation would be moot. Because they (the patch designers)would have Sr., to deal with!

IF Mr. Parker were still with us there wouldn't be an AKKI crest becuase there wouldn't BE an AKKI. Mr. Mills would still be with his instructor and those that are under Mr. Mills would still just be called the "Paul Mills family group".

As I said, it's important to some people... so we talk about it. I don't see why you are telling me to "let it go". I see it as an issue, if you don't... save your key strokes. Unless you are stepping up to defend someone.

Liked the buggs quote though...

Your Brother
John

 

[donald]

Sir John,

First let me say that my post was primarly directed to the person who began this little settoo.Secondly, I in no way mentioned Mr.Mills, or any other senior,save Mr.Tatum. I only mentioned Mr.Tatum in regards to his crest design. Now if I may respond to your statement regarding Mr.Mills et al. If Mr.Parker Sr., was still with us. There would be other kenpo associations,organizations,affiliations,etc.,etc.,and, so on, and, so on. My point was that their designs would'nt be so simular to the IKKA design, except with Mr.Sr.'s approval. That being said I really don't see the harm in the design simularities. Excepting with those who make claims of being a Parker kenpo based system, and are not. Regarding the quote from Mr.B., thank you. His fierce tenacity has been an inspiration to us here at Shady Pines.

By His Grace :asian:

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by donald
Sir John,

First let me say that my post was primarly directed to the person who began this little settoo.Secondly, I in no way mentioned Mr.Mills, or any other senior,save Mr.Tatum. I only mentioned Mr.Tatum in regards to his crest design.
Regarding the quote from Mr.B., thank you. His fierce tenacity has been an inspiration to us here at Shady Pines.

Thought it was in reply to the post just preceding it.
Shows what happens when I assume huh?
Your Brother
John

PS: Personally I feel a great deal of pitty for Wil E. Coyotae... Guess I can associate with him. Chasing his passion but always going just far enough to go over the cliff.

 

[Brother John]

Has there ever been legal action taken on such an issue?
Is there a precedence???

Thanks
Your Brother
John



accept NO imitations:

 

[allen]

Huh? Hows this thing work? What? Am I in? Does my avatar show-up? Guess who?